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The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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DWill wrote: if a fact about Jesus seems incongruent or is a possible sticking point that presumably could have been omitted to remove the problem, that in itself could be strong evidence that there is a core of historical truth. That the Gospel writers do include these facts indicate that they are a part of the tradition they couldn't reasonably ignore. One of these is the bit about Jesus not being a hit in his own hometown. The most significant, though is the crucifixion itself. The Messiah is summarily executed by the Roman authorities--what kind of a promising start is that for the Jewish Kingdom of God? Would that scenario be likely to have arisen as fiction? What would be the point of using it? It therefore seems likely to me that a person named Jesus was crucified.
A summary of the comments of Josephus about crucifixion is at http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JD ... ephus.html Josephus said that the Romans crucified many before the walls of Jerusalem during the siege of 70 C.E. The idea was to terrorize the population and force a surrender. The number reached 500 a day at one point until there was no wood left in the area for this purpose! "the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies."

This great humiliation and trauma for the Jewish people naturally led them to consider how they could continue the struggle against Rome. My view is that the story of Jesus, the one who died to save many, was a form of 'recovered memory therapy', displacing the trauma of the Roman mass cruelty of crucifixion into a narrative myth that would enable organisation of the community on a moral and religious basis. As the wiki page on recovered memory therapy explains, people sometimes claim to remember events in childhood which did not happen, but they believe fervently, often because the story has been suggested to them. This idea of Jesus as a 'recovered memory' explains why Jesus was crucified through hands and feet, and had Odin's spear stuck in his side, even though nails must go through wrists and ankles to prevent the body falling off. Jesus Christ is symbolic king of eternity. The stigmata signify the kingly power of energy from the hands. The cross symbolises the defeat of the Messiah by Rome, and the resurrection symbolises his eventual victory over what Paul called the powers of this present darkness. It makes far more sense to see the cross of Jesus as a myth created by the post-destruction Jewish people to formulate a viable story for the struggle against Rome. It could have drawn elements from many of the heroes of the Jewish War, and also from Old Testament prophecy concerning the messiah.

Another key element of the Christ narrative is the eschatological story of the precession of the equinox through the Ages of Pisces and Aquarius. This cosmic myth provided a long term vision for the gospel story of salvation, whereby the victory of the messiah denied in the Age of Pisces would be realised in the Age of Aquarius. However, this story was too controversial to be included explicitly, as it conflicts with Jewish hostility to star worship, and so is only included symbolically, in the loaves and fishes, the Man with the Jug, the holy city of Revelation, the Alpha and Omega, the 'fishers of men', and numerous other symbols. Indeed these precessional Great Year symbols are so pervasive that there are strong grounds to see them as an organising principle for the cosmology of the gospels.

Christopher Hitchens cites an episode of anger from Jesus as evidence of such a trifling detail that no one would have thought to invent it. I would rather suggest, the Gospels drew from many sources, and anything seen as adding to the credibility and coherence of the story would have been strongly considered for inclusion.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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DWill wrote: I know I bring up this name a lot, but Robt. Wright cites a rule of thumb he says is used by Gospel scholars: that if a fact about Jesus seems incongruent or is a possible sticking point that presumably could have been omitted to remove the problem, that in itself could be strong evidence that there is a core of historical truth. That the Gospel writers do include these facts inidicate that they are a part of the tradition they couldn't reasonably ignore. One of these is the bit about Jesus not being a hit in his own hometown. The most significant, though is the crucifixion itself. The Messiah is summarily executed by the Roman authorities--what kind of a promising start is that for the Jewish Kingdom of God? Would that scenario be likely to have arisen as fiction? What would be the point of using it? It therefore seems likely to me that a person named Jesus was crucified.
I love this Robt. Wright stuff, DWill. It's very relevant. I'm finding amazing intertextual connections as well while reading Tarnas' book. Currently Tarnas is talking about how Christianity took hold of the ancient world, grounded in Greco-Roman traditions while completely subsuming those Platonic and scientific modes of thought. In particular, we see many diverse philosophies (and a multitude of gods) coming out of ancient Greece consolidated into one religion and one Christ, who incidentally was seen as a historical person :
Tarnas wrote:Christianity . . . introduced an essential public and historical element into the mythological framework: Jesus Christ was not a mythological figure but an actual historical person who fulfilled the Judaic messianic prophecies and brought the new revelation to a universal audience, with potentially all of mankind as the new initiates rather than a select few. What was to the pagan mysteries an esoteric mythological process—the death-rebirth mystery—had in Christ become concrete historical reality, enacted for all humanity to witness and openly participate in, with a consequent transformation of the entire movement of history. From this viewpoint, the pagan mysteries were not so much an impediment to the growth of Christianity as they were the soil from which it could be readily sprung.
By the way, I think Jesus' execution was brilliantly woven into this redemption story later concoted by Church mythologists (if indeed this is how it happened). You can see how Jesus' relative obscurity would have lent itself to the creation of this new mythology. As Jesus was relatively unknown in his own life, but with just a few engaging tales left behind (and of course his martyrdom) which would all lend to the largely fictional narrative being created. If Jesus' life had been better documented, he might not have been so enigmatic or mysterious, leaving less for the imagination of those church mythologists.

The more I hear about Wright, the more I want to read his book. I can see how valuable it might be to read both Wright and Tarnas back to back. I'm finding huge passages in Tarnas that I would post here if I only had the time.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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Hey Stahrwe, the book "Who Was Jesus: fingerprints of the Christ" is by DM Murdock, not Dr. Tenney.
"One would naturally expect that the Lord Jesus Christ would be sufficiently important to receive ample notice in the literature of his time, and that extensive biographical material would be available. He was observed by multitudes of people, and his own followers numbered into the hundreds (1 Cor. 15:6), whose witness was still living in the middle of the first century. As a matter of fact, the amount of information concerning him is comparatively meager. Aside from the four Gospels, and a few scattered allusions in the epistles, contemporary history is almost silent concerning him."

- Merrill C. Tenney

- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) 85-86

* Dr. Tenney is a conservative evangelical Christian who was a professor of Theological Studies and the dean of the school of Theology at Wheaton College. Tenney was also one of the original translators of the NASB and NIV editions of the Bible.
She's pulling quotes from Dr. Tenney and many others to point out just how problematic it is to locate the Jesus of history, permitting that he even existed in the first place.

Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus1.html

I know you don't like Murdock Stahrwe, but it would be good to actually read the book so you can see what all of these New Testament scholars have to say about the issue of trying to locate the Jesus of history and how problematic it actually is. It addresses the Gospels themselves and outlines very clearly where they agree and where they disagree. All of the sources are cited in the book and there are many of them to investigate. Dr. Tenney's quotes are cited in the book and can be found on pags 85 and 86 as I posted previously.

Perhaps you can read the book and then offer a rebuttle if you'd like, but at least read the book before trying to dismiss it out of hand. I've read "The Case For Christ" by Strobel, who I largely disagree with, just for the sake of reading it. In the end I side with Murdocks case against the historical Christ but that comes from having investigated both opinions.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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Geo wrote:I'm finding huge passages in Tarnas that I would post here if I only had the time.
Tarnas is active in "The Heroes Journey" book which is a collection of Q&A sessions with Joseph Campbell. That was my first introduction to Tarnas. He's correct in noting that the Christ story is the ancient esoteric mysteries turned exoteric and he's basically relaying much of what he learned from Campbell's scholarship.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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tat tvam asi wrote:
Geo wrote:I'm finding huge passages in Tarnas that I would post here if I only had the time.
Tarnas is active in "The Heroes Journey" book which is a collection of Q&A sessions with Joseph Campbell. That was my first introduction to Tarnas. He's correct in noting that the Christ story is the ancient esoteric mysteries turned exoteric and he's basically relaying much of what he learned from Campbell's scholarship.
Thanks, I didn't know that. Neither am I familiar with Joseph Campbell, but I'd like to tackle The Hero With A Thousand Faces at some point.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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Robert Tulip wrote: This great humiliation and trauma for the Jewish people naturally led them to consider how they could continue the struggle against Rome. My view is that the story of Jesus, the one who died to save many, was a form of 'recovered memory therapy', displacing the trauma of the Roman mass cruelty of crucifixion into a narrative myth that would enable organisation of the community on a moral and religious basis. As the wiki page on recovered memory therapy explains, people sometimes claim to remember events in childhood which did not happen, but they believe fervently, often because the story has been suggested to them. This idea of Jesus as a 'recovered memory' explains why Jesus was crucified through hands and feet, and had Odin's spear stuck in his side, even though nails must go through wrists and ankles to prevent the body falling off. Jesus Christ is symbolic king of eternity. The stigmata signify the kingly power of energy from the hands. The cross symbolises the defeat of the Messiah by Rome, and the resurrection symbolises his eventual victory over what Paul called the powers of this present darkness. It makes far more sense to see the cross of Jesus as a myth created by the post-destruction Jewish people to formulate a viable story for the struggle against Rome. It could have drawn elements from many of the heroes of the Jewish War, and also from Old Testament prophecy concerning the messiah.
That's a powerful theory, Robert. And you incorporate a mythic substrate very well here, but in a way that for me subordinates it to the political history and aspirations of the Jews. I think that in all this an element that also can't be ignored is less political, the enormous power of the offer of individual salvation from the new religion, available to anyone, regardless of ethnicity, it they would only believe. This probably a later development than the era you're talking about here, though. Considering the turbulence and uprootedness of the times, this was a potent selling point for the faith.
Another key element of the Christ narrative is the eschatological story of the precession of the equinox through the Ages of Pisces and Aquarius. This cosmic myth provided a long term vision for the gospel story of salvation, whereby the victory of the messiah denied in the Age of Pisces would be realised in the Age of Aquarius. However, this story was too controversial to be included explicitly, as it conflicts with Jewish hostility to star worship, and so is only included symbolically, in the loaves and fishes, the Man with the Jug, the holy city of Revelation, the Alpha and Omega, the 'fishers of men', and numerous other symbols. Indeed these precessional Great Year symbols are so pervasive that there are strong grounds to see them as an organising principle for the cosmology of the gospels.
So maybe I can only go along with you to a certain point at this time, alas.
Christopher Hitchens cites an episode of anger from Jesus as evidence of such a trifling detail that no one would have thought to invent it. I would rather suggest, the Gospels drew from many sources, and anything seen as adding to the credibility and coherence of the story would have been strongly considered for inclusion.
But are you saying that the Gospel writers would have been likely to manipulate the audience and the record to this degree? I think Hitchens is probably right that inconvenient inclusions indicate that the Jesus myth started with a real Jesus.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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tat tvam asi wrote:Hey Stahrwe, the book "Who Was Jesus: fingerprints of the Christ" is by DM Murdock, not Dr. Tenney.
"One would naturally expect that the Lord Jesus Christ would be sufficiently important to receive ample notice in the literature of his time, and that extensive biographical material would be available. He was observed by multitudes of people, and his own followers numbered into the hundreds (1 Cor. 15:6), whose witness was still living in the middle of the first century. As a matter of fact, the amount of information concerning him is comparatively meager. Aside from the four Gospels, and a few scattered allusions in the epistles, contemporary history is almost silent concerning him."

- Merrill C. Tenney

- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) 85-86

* Dr. Tenney is a conservative evangelical Christian who was a professor of Theological Studies and the dean of the school of Theology at Wheaton College. Tenney was also one of the original translators of the NASB and NIV editions of the Bible.
She's pulling quotes from Dr. Tenney and many others to point out just how problematic it is to locate the Jesus of history, permitting that he even existed in the first place.

Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus1.html

I know you don't like Murdock Stahrwe, but it would be good to actually read the book so you can see what all of these New Testament scholars have to say about the issue of trying to locate the Jesus of history and how problematic it actually is. It addresses the Gospels themselves and outlines very clearly where they agree and where they disagree. All of the sources are cited in the book and there are many of them to investigate. Dr. Tenney's quotes are cited in the book and can be found on pags 85 and 86 as I posted previously.

Perhaps you can read the book and then offer a rebuttle if you'd like, but at least read the book before trying to dismiss it out of hand. I've read "The Case For Christ" by Strobel, who I largely disagree with, just for the sake of reading it. In the end I side with Murdocks case against the historical Christ but that comes from having investigated both opinions.
Perhpas it is just me, but I found your post referencing WWJ and linking it with Merrill Tenney mislleading at best. You might consider editting it so that thee authorship is clearly stated and citations to other offers are not in the body in a way which might be confusing.

D. M. Murdock seems to be in the same class as Paul VorHoevon claiming a new discovery when it's just the same old same old wrapped up in a slick package.

What exactly is her justification to claim she is an Acharya?

Perhaps you should join in the Bible reading forum.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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Geo wrote:Thanks, I didn't know that. Neither am I familiar with Joseph Campbell, but I'd like to tackle The Hero With A Thousand Faces at some point.
The Hero's Journey

Here's the full "Hero's Journey" DVD free on google:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7s+journey#

If pay attention you'll find Tarnas showing up in the video.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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Stahrwe wrote:Perhpas it is just me, but I found your post referencing WWJ and linking it with Merrill Tenney mislleading at best. You might consider editting it so that thee authorship is clearly stated and citations to other offers are not in the body in a way which might be confusing.
In what way? A list of quotes from a wide variety of different people along with the exact page numbers on which they were quoted was given. It looks to me like a book called "Who Was Jesus" in which different people are quoted on various pages. Did you also think the Jewish Encyclopedia was the author of the book? The point was simply to go over what several Christian scholars and authorities have to say about the issue finding an historical Jesus.
- The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (v.6,83)
- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) 84

- Merrill C. Tenney

- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) 85-86

* Dr. Tenney is a conservative evangelical Christian who was a professor of Theological Studies and the dean of the school of Theology at Wheaton College. Tenney was also one of the original translators of the NASB and NIV editions of the Bible.

- F.F. Bruce, a founder of the modern evangelical movement

- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) page 84

- John P. Meier

- Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ page 86

* Dr. Meier is a Catholic University New Testament professor, Catholic priest and monsignor

- Dr. Craig L. Blomberg

- WWJ (60)

- Dr. JD Crossan

- WWJ (24)

* Dr. Crossan is a major figure in the fields of biblical archaeology, anthropology and New Testament textual and higher criticism. He is especially vocal in the field of Historical Jesus studies.

- Dr. J.P. Moreland

WWJ, page 261


I take it that you didn't pay very close attention to the post at all.
Stahrwe wrote:D. M. Murdock seems to be in the same class as Paul VorHoevon claiming a new discovery when it's just the same old same old wrapped up in a slick package.
What new discovery? I've just outlined the Docetic's and other who believed, from the beginning, that Jesus represented a non-historical person. The point here is that the debate is nothing new or modern but instead an ancient debate that the early church fathers had to address quite often.
Stahrwe wrote:What exactly is her justification to claim she is an Acharya?
Here's a few quotes from our FAQ section:
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... f=3&t=1149
Why does Acharya S use a pen name?

First, many authors use a "pen name". It's very common and a big deal really need not be made of it. I'm not aware of any other author being harassed so much over a pen name as Acharya S. When it comes to religion and challenging the status-quo it may be wise to hide ones true I.D. especially if one is discussing Islam - radical Muslims will create violent riots for exposing Islam. For example, remember the Danish cartoons of Muhammad which set-off violent riots by Muslims?

This is another ad hominem attack that critics try to use against Acharya S to dismiss her entire body of work, that's all. "Acharya" was chosen as a sort of joke to tease the Hindu authorities because no woman is allowed to be an "Acharya" - let alone a white woman. "Acharya" means many things - teacher, master, priest of the sun, guru etc. The "S" is a mystery - oooh, it must be something horrible or nothing at all

In fact, some Hindu fanatics ended up getting Acharya's Wikipedia page deleted because of her pen name, essentially validating why she used "Acharya" in the first place. That's why Wiki has forbid her Wiki article to be titled "Acharya S." These few Hindu fanatics (Hare Krishna) demonstrated their own biases, bigotry and prejudice by attacking a female author for using the name 'Acharya" as a pen name.

Furthermore, there are loads of people with the last name "Acharya." The joke here is on those who take the pen name "Acharya S" too seriously. Acharya S doesn't.
Acharya wrote:Critics Don't Know My Work, Shriek About My Pen Name

Thanks, FTL, for doing all that.

I see that the Zeitgeist controversy has spawned at least 900 new webpages specifically referring to me and my work.

Within these pages appear many erroneous claims that are reflective of the singular fact that my critics have not read my works and are therefore unqualified to make commentary upon them. Such facts, however, do not prevent these individuals from dishonestly attempting to debunk my work.

I would like to emphasize that point: The vast majority of my critics have not even read my works. In particular they have not read Suns of God, which contains refutations for pretty much all of their shallow criticisms. Anyone who wishes to defend my work really needs to read SOG. And those who attack my work without having studied SOG have NO credibility whatsoever.

These dishonest characters also like to hold up detractors of mine within the "atheist" community who likewise have not studied my work but are dishonestly pretending to be experts on me and it. These individuals apparently view themselves as competitors and are evidently professionally jealous in that their works are not receiving the same widespread recognition.

Moreover, I usually don't like to play this card but the facts demonstrate that I have been subjected to what could only be deemed sexism. I have heard about at least one prominent radio personality who didn't want to endorse my work because I was "too sexy." Hard to believe at this point in my life, but a sad reflection of human culture. In any event, a pathetic illustration of the blatant sexism to which I have been subjected. It could honestly be suggested much other vitriol directed at me emanates from the same place.

In any case, it may be a good idea to keep these ideas in mind when encountering the usual character assassinations I'm subjected to when fervent believers cannot dispense with the facts I present. Invariably, they attack my credentials, making hysterical commentary, for example, about how I use a pseudonym and don't reveal my real name.

In the first place, it is true that for some years I was safe in my anonymity from the crackpots and stalkers who later threatened to obtain my credit report, for example, and post it online, along with my home address and phone number. Anyone who knows my story knows that it was none other than Dr. Robert Price who outed me in 2001, which I discovered to my horror one day while sitting home alone, pregnant. All of a sudden, I get an email from a stranger with my real name and home address and phone number, saying that it had been released by Dr. Price to a Christian network. My first reaction was that I would need to flee my home. I was terrified for my life at that point. So, that's the reason I initially used a pseudonym. (Bob Price and I have since mended fences, and he has removed his bad review of Christ Con and endorsed Suns of God. Dr. Price has also written the foreword to my book Who Was Jesus?)

Yes, I chose the pseudonym principally in order to tease religious fanatics, as I was at that time studying Indian religion and noted the chauvinism within. The issue of a pseudonym constitutes an infantile argument that reflects an utter inability to deal with the facts, just more ad homs and assaults on my character, as if that will prove Jesus existed. (And my contention that "Jesus Christ" is a fictional character is really at the basis of much of the vitriol tossed my way.)

In the meantime, the harpies are still shrieking about my nom de plume - a common characteristic in the publishing world, as is evidence by the term "de plume," which means "of pen." I.e., it's a PEN NAME. Nothing sinister or conspiratorial about using a PEN NAME. Enough of such tripe.

Although these harpies claim to be expert enough about me to make their absurd commentaries, they have no idea that I have now begun to use my REAL NAME, as can be found on the first page of my website, attached to my book Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ In other words, the point is now moot.
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Re: The Christ Myth Anthology, by D.M. Murdock

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DWill wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote: <>the story of Jesus, the one who died to save many, was a form of 'recovered memory therapy', displacing the trauma of the Roman mass cruelty of crucifixion into a narrative myth<>
That's a powerful theory, Robert. And you incorporate a mythic substrate very well here, but in a way that for me subordinates it to the political history and aspirations of the Jews. I think that in all this an element that also can't be ignored is less political, the enormous power of the offer of individual salvation from the new religion, available to anyone, regardless of ethnicity, it they would only believe. This probably a later development than the era you're talking about here, though. Considering the turbulence and uprootedness of the times, this was a potent selling point for the faith.
“Individual Salvation” is an idea that has considerably changed in meaning over the course of Christian history. The idea of heaven has separated from the idea of the cosmos in modern faith, in a way the ancients would have found incomprehensible. Heaven has come to be viewed as a real location, rather than a whole sense of how eternity surrounds time. Plato discusses this in Timaeus where he calls time (difference) the moving image of eternity (identity), and describes the relation between identity and difference against the framework of the galaxy (which he calls the realm of the same) and the solar system (the realm of difference). This natural theology shows where the astrological references in the Bible are central, in that the vision of heaven, as the framework of salvation, is intimately bound to the vision of the cosmos.

So getting back to your comments about the Jews and recovered memory, I think the idea of individual salvation was there from the start, through a cosmic lens. It went into the stew pot together with the political symbolism of the crucified God as a defiance of the Empire.
Another key element of the Christ narrative is the eschatological story of the precession of the equinox through the Ages of Pisces and Aquarius. This cosmic myth provided a long term vision for the gospel story of salvation, whereby the victory of the messiah denied in the Age of Pisces would be realised in the Age of Aquarius. However, this story was too controversial to be included explicitly, as it conflicts with Jewish hostility to star worship, and so is only included symbolically, in the loaves and fishes, the Man with the Jug, the holy city of Revelation, the Alpha and Omega, the 'fishers of men', and numerous other symbols. Indeed these precessional Great Year symbols are so pervasive that there are strong grounds to see them as an organising principle for the cosmology of the gospels.
So maybe I can only go along with you to a certain point at this time, alas.
No worries Bill, my point here is that this material about the Ages is entirely empirical in spirit, seeking to explain the Bible against the actual observation of the cyclic rhythms of the cosmos.
Christopher Hitchens cites an episode of anger from Jesus as evidence of such a trifling detail that no one would have thought to invent it. I would rather suggest, the Gospels drew from many sources, and anything seen as adding to the credibility and coherence of the story would have been strongly considered for inclusion.
But are you saying that the Gospel writers would have been likely to manipulate the audience and the record to this degree? I think Hitchens is probably right that inconvenient inclusions indicate that the Jesus myth started with a real Jesus.
If the Gospels are a wiki, then yes, this level of manipulation is entirely to be expected. People put up text for critique, and if too many people don’t like it, it gets resubmitted in amended form with the more difficult ideas softened. As the Alexandrian Brotherhood asked each other what they believed, the gospels emerged as a consensus myth. I expect many would have said they believed, even knew, the things they said to be true, in order to enhance their own credibility in the cauldron of debate.
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