Young earth theory put to test.
tat tvam asi wrote:If creation took place
before the
first day, and time keeping - according your apology - began on the
first day, then there's no possible way of saying that the earth is
young. You can claim that the
first day is
young by counting backwards through the bible to the
first day of creation, but if you
reject the creation of the world on the
first day, as you have done here, then you also
reject the earth as
young because the it's the
first day of creation that is
young according to literalist calculation. Obviously there's no sense of
time before the
first day according to this apology of yours, so you can't say that there was only a
short amount of time between the pre-first day creation of the heaven and earth (universe), hence there's no way of proving in any way that the earth is
young nor any reason to suggest that its
young in the first place! This game has been over throughout the entire thread and all of the twisting and manipulating of terms that you've been trying has gotten you absolutely nowhere. You're still stuck at the level of trying make the first day a literal day. Your own apology itself, evolved to this point, serves to put YEC to rest Stahrwe...
Stahrwe wrote:We cannot say it occurred before time existed because if time does not exist how can something happen before it?
Exactly! You can not say that verse 1 in Genesis happened
before the first day which you yourself claim is the
beginning of time. Nothing could have occurred
before time as you say above, so that means the creation of the earth and universe couldn't have happened
before the first day, before the existence of time keeping which is time itself. If time exists then time can be kept.
Notwithstanding your eagerness to close your mind to possibilities you may not have considered, the fact that creation took place in verse 1, before our reckoning of time began, is not impossible, nor does it diminish the concept of a Young Earth. You need to jump out of that box you have your brain in.
My point is that you cannot say that creation took place during day 1 and you cannot say that creation took place after day 1. That is all you can say. I find this no more constraining than asking what is outside the universe allowing the universe to expand. You have your mind so entrenched in the rational that you are uncomfortable when you are challenged. Yet why is this any harder to imagine that while we are on earth, assuming we are at the same lattitude, time passes at the same rate, but while it is passing for us, all over the universe, at the event horizon of black holes, time is stopped.
tat tvam asi wrote:Creation of heaven and earth (before time)>>>First day and time (6-8,000 years ago)>>>Modern Era
You're so drenched in self contradiction at this point that you might want to consider bringing in an entire team of apologists to try and rescue you from yourself. And even worse yet, time keeping is designated on the fourth day according the bible itself. The sun enters the storyline on the fourth day for the specific purpose of marking time - days, seasons, and years. The entire first three days of the creation myth are set up before what the bible gives out as the first point of time keeping - marking days, seasons, and years. So technically, if nothing could have happened before time as you yourself insist, the first three days of creation could not have happened along the same line of reasoning.
You are correct that on day 4 the Sun, Moon, and stars are given a specific purpose, an assignment but that does not mean they were created. The word for create is not present in connection with day 4. The word asah (made) is used but it means:
`asah <06213>
hse `asah
Pronunciation: aw-saw'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1708 1709
PrtSpch: verb
a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and
widest application (as follows):-accomplish, advance,
appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth,
bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal
(with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in)
execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, +
finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go
about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X
indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain,
make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare,
bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure,
provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin,
spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be
(warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.
So we have the universe already created, already functioning but at least part of its purpose designated on day 4. Consider the following simplification. I hand you my watch on Sunday. On Wednesday I tell you to keep my watch for you to tell time with.
If I tried to say the Sun and Moon were created on day 4, then I would have a problem as I would be reading something which isn’t there.
We have been through this, including the definitions several times. It is becoming repetitive.
tat tvam asi wrote: And, there is no restorative process mentioned in the bible about Genesis 1. You've made it up out of thin air to try and excuse the contradictions and errors of the text and of yourself. There is no hint of anything happening to God's creation until Adam and Eve sin which is beyond all seven of the days. At that point sin enters the storyline, a perfect nature is corrupted, and the plan of salvation is then underway which is the only restorative process mentioned in the bible. It isn't complete until the New Jerusalem and new earth stage of Revelation and people are finally saved and the earth is restored to where God and man are together again like before sin entered the world. That apology is a dead end street and you've just reached the street sign at the end of the road...
You have read the Bible? No, hint? Out of thin air? Really?
Whether you choose to see it or not is irrelevant. You cannot see the difference between create and appoint.
In verse 2 the word 'was' is hayah in Hebrew.
hayah <01961>
hyh hayah
Pronunciation: haw-yaw
Origin: a primitive root [compare 01933]
Reference: TWOT - 491
PrtSpch: verb
Definition: 1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1a) (Qal)
1a1) -----
1a1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about,
come to pass
1a1b) to come about, come to pass
1a2) to come into being, become
1a2a) to arise, appear, come
1a2b) to become
1a2b1) to become
1a2b2) to become like
1a2b3) to be instituted, be established
1a3) to be
1a3a) to exist, be in existence
1a3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
1a3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word
of locality)
1a3d) to accompany, be with
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
1b2) to be done, be finished, be gone
a primitive root (compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become,
come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or
auxiliary):-beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished,
committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint,
fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit
see HEBREW for 01933
In verse 1 everything created. Between verses 1 and 2 something happened. Can paraphrase the two verses thusly:
1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,
2) Then the earth became broken and formless and judgment was upon the face of the deep.
