• In total there are 4 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 3 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 871 on Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:00 am

A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Engage in conversations about worldwide religions, cults, philosophy, atheism, freethought, critical thinking, and skepticism in this forum.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
User avatar
MDuszak
Experienced
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:24 pm
13
Location: Costa Rica
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

Cause truly there is no stone haha or, rather, we cannot in truth and fully know what the real essence of the atom particles PERCEIVED as a stone looks like. :D What we perceive as hard objects in front of us is simply our brain registering certain combination of atoms interacting with one another in a certain way. The look of the stone is how our brain READS those atom combinations and then presents it to us to interpret it. There is SOMETHING out there, but is it as what it looks-a STONE? Quantum physics is so fascinating! Have you seen "What the bleep do we know?" :D
Last edited by MDuszak on Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Think that life is an ongoing odyssey full of unsolved questions and mysteries, with no one truly knowing what the Ultimate Reality is? So do I! Purchase my new book "ODYSSEY OF AN AIRHEAD; ULTIMATE TRUTH, HERE I COME!" and join me on this Earthly journey full of new truths to discover! http://www.odysseyofanairhead.com
sade201030
Almost Comfortable
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:40 pm
13
Has thanked: 5 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

I think there's a stone but it doesn't guarantee that it will be forever a stone. you have to consider the five agreggrates of skandhas-- 1) form or matter 2) sensation or feeling 3) perception or cognition 4) volition and 5) consciousness -- that why "Impermanence" is part of buddha's teaching
User avatar
MDuszak
Experienced
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:24 pm
13
Location: Costa Rica
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

Oh nice to you see you here, Sade201030! Buddhism rocks! :)
Think that life is an ongoing odyssey full of unsolved questions and mysteries, with no one truly knowing what the Ultimate Reality is? So do I! Purchase my new book "ODYSSEY OF AN AIRHEAD; ULTIMATE TRUTH, HERE I COME!" and join me on this Earthly journey full of new truths to discover! http://www.odysseyofanairhead.com
User avatar
johnson1010
Tenured Professor
Posts: 3564
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:35 pm
15
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 1280 times
Been thanked: 1128 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

The religious understanding

Image

falls somewhat short of reality.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
bleachededen

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Finds books under furniture
Posts: 1680
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:50 pm
14
Has thanked: 171 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

Just a bit.
User avatar
WhimsicalWonder
Upwardly Mobile
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:26 am
13
Location: The heartland
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

"What the bleep do we know." Such a charming lil' film. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Of course... me being me, here's what I watched shortly thereafter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlPiXNlhKFo

:D
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2726 times
Been thanked: 2666 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

johnson1010 wrote:Evolution is looking you in the face everytime you eat a cheese burger
Johnson, this comment is worth exploring. Perhaps you meant by it that cheese burgers illustrate evolution because humans have bred cows for beef production.

There is another meaning, that the cheeseburger exists within a commercial market, and the market is evolving by the pressure of natural selection. If people prefer burgers with pickle, the market evolves to supply the demand. If people like cheeseburgers with thick or thin cheese, and with fast or slow service, high or low price, buns made of plastic or real bread, etc, the market will evolve by natural selection to service whichever niche is most competitive.

The concept of God similarly evolves to adapt to the demand from the religious market. If a religious meme, eg the historical Jesus, works better than its alternative (in genetic terms we call the alternative gene an 'allele'), then the meme will evolve by exactly the same natural law as our genes, although memetic and market evolution are of course much faster than genetic evolution.

The question of whether there is intelligence guiding evolution is not so simple as you present. The Boston Terrier and the Cheeseburger have evolved under the guidance of human purposes (although whether cheeseburgers are signs of intelligent life may be disputed). It is possible to speculate that the natural structure of the universe is analogous to human intelligence, in that changes that are in line with nature succeed, while those that are not in line with their natural environment will fail. You are right that there is no 'entity' who designs organisms, but nature itself does provide a sort of guiding intelligence.

With the example of God we can say that supernatural religion has reached its use by date, and is no longer an adaptive method for human flourishing. However, given the human need for simple answers at the mass popular level, I doubt that God and religion are anywhere near obsolete. It is simply that these narrative explanations need to adapt to the new scientific context.
User avatar
WhimsicalWonder
Upwardly Mobile
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:26 am
13
Location: The heartland
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

A painting has a painter. We may not always know who painted the painting but rest assured it was a human construction. Unless it was done by an elephant. Those fellows have been doing self portraits which makes you wonder a little about the consciousness of animals a little. Off track. A building has a builder. Rest assured. Tangible individual human construction is evidence of intelligence on earth. It does not logically follow that "creation" has a "creator" because it presupposes that we were "created". The argument is terribly flawed from the start.

I'm not nearly as educated as Mr. Tulip (or the largest percent of active members here), but I'll be dipped if I can't see right through something this obvious. :)
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2726 times
Been thanked: 2666 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

WhimsicalWonder wrote: Tangible individual human construction is evidence of intelligence on earth. It does not logically follow that "creation" has a "creator" because it presupposes that we were "created". The argument is terribly flawed from the start.
.. I'll be dipped if I can't see right through something this obvious. :)
Thanks WW. You are absolutely right that we must abandon all thought of creationism and intelligent design in order to understand evolution. Richard Dawkins presents a devastating critique of the ‘intelligent designer’ theory of Paley in his book The Blind Watchmaker.

Thanks also for picking up the lack of clarity and precision in my comment “nature itself does provide a sort of guiding intelligence”. My overly condensed comment illustrates how hard it can be to discuss such topics well.

How I see evolution is that nature provides the boundary conditions within which organisms can evolve. For example, our current efforts to pile CO2 into the air are rapidly changing the boundary conditions for many organisms, such as plants and animals on mountains whose habitat is shrinking into mountain islands as the temperature rises. More broadly, parameters for evolution include the laws of physics.

I was using ‘intelligence’, perhaps wrongly, to refer to these natural parameters. Of course this is bending the usual meaning of the term, because intelligence is a property of thought, and thought requires a thinker. There is no thinker for evolution, so there is no intelligence in this usual sense. However, we can also say that the laws of physics have a mathematical existence independent of their discovery in human thought. Planets were moving according to the law of gravity long before it was formulated in Newton’s inverse square law. So in this sense, we can say the universe has a natural intelligence, in that things obey mathematical laws regardless of whether people are there to see them.

An implication here is that ability to discern the natural intelligence of the universe is an adaptive quality for evolution. Any organism that finds a new way to exploit and expand its biological niche is in this sense increasing its complexity and expanding its natural intelligence. Trees evolve to compete for the sunlight, but this does not mean they have brains. It does, though, point to a mechanical process that has a strong correlation with human intelligence.

We can also analyse God against this framework of natural intelligence. Religion is an effort to answer the question how can we be saved. The traditional Christian answer, “believe in Jesus”, is generally now seen as bereft of real content. Atheists tend to say this means religion is entirely maladaptive. I would rather argue that religion presents an effort to understand reality, and that the concept of God can adapt to modern scientific findings, pointing a path towards human adaptation to the natural intelligence of the universe. We can define purpose and meaning in terms of how we can best adapt to scientific law. I’m sorry if this is too contorted a usage of the term intelligence, but it makes sense to me.
User avatar
President Camacho

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I Should Be Bronzed
Posts: 1655
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:44 pm
16
Location: Hampton, Ga
Has thanked: 246 times
Been thanked: 314 times

Re: A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

Unread post

What about Chaos? Is there intelligence in that? Does intelligence have limitations?

Obviously mine does because I'm getting confused. :lol:
Post Reply

Return to “Religion & Philosophy”