Baut is not a forum for astrotheology. They do not allow discussion of religion. My thread there is just empirical. The guy who was laying into me just got a three day suspension for rudeness. They do not tolerate arguments that cannot be defended.

I think the absence of a forum for astrotheology is because there is so little interest in it, except for at free thought nation, which does not get much traffic.

I am sure something could be came up with.....I will do some investigating, maybe an astrology site that includes this?

The astrotheology issue is complex because it deals with astronomy for sure, but only in terms of ancient astronomy with it's mystical usage. So an empirical astronomy site has little interest in carrying on what is essentially discussion of comparative mythology and it's outdated astronomy. But I could see how they could probably manage to have a forum as a tribute to the astronomy of the past dealing with Egypt, Brittian, the Americas, Asia, etc. and discuss ancient observational methods, which of course leads into the astrotheology of the ancients. It could be more of a combined archeoastronomy and astrotheology section...

Robert I joined that site I figured it was time for me to learn a little about astronomy thanks for the link.

I may have said so already, Robert, but I just don't see it. Besides there being 12 and 12, I don't see anything compelling about this superimposing. Am I missing something in particular?

Could this be the reason for Mona Lisa's cryptic smile?

DWill wrote:I may have said so already, Robert, but I just don't see it. Besides there being 12 and 12, I don't see anything compelling about this superimposing. Am I missing something in particular?

DWill, I'm quite astounded by your inability here to see something that is so obvious and simple. Meaning no disrespect at all, I am convinced there must be some strange psychological and cultural blockage happening for you, and for others with the same attitude. I sincerely appreciate your comment, as you probably represent many who do not have the courage to engage me in conversation.

If you "said so already", perhaps you are not looking carefully at the more detailed depiction I have just provided? It reminds me of previous paradigm shifts where people who were operating within an obsolete paradigm had such strong assumptions governing their thought that they could not comprehend things that now to us are simple facts in astronomy and biology. People are so certain in their prejudiced assumption that The Last Supper could not contain a simple astronomical code that they refuse to look at a simple explanation.

The use of the constellation templates results in figures with the same angles as the constellation stars. The coloured lines join the dots of the actual traditional stars for each constellation in the same order as seen in the sky, along the path of the sun. The decisive proof is that the twelve figures are in the same order as the path of the sun through the sky, and that Christ is based on the template of Pisces, the constellation marking the position of the spring equinox point. The whole picture is a simple map of the year, showing the empirical structure of time with the twelve months and four seasons. It reflects the old understanding from Plato that salvation is found in understanding the actual relation between time and eternity.

If you look at my decoder, you can see the transformations between each star group and each figure, through equivalent changes to the first twelve letters of the alphabet. I provide these specifically to show that the "transforming" involves relatively minimal change, mostly just rotating them and keeping the constellation angles. The order from right to left is similar to Leonardo's 'mirror writing' method.

The observable changes are as follows, with the approximate changes required to each figure compared to the star map of the ecliptic as shown. These changes are equivalent to the changes shown for each corresponding letter from A to L at the top of the decoder key diagram. Andrew, for example, (third from left) has the same angles between his head and hands as the angles between the three corners of the triangle of Capricorn as observed in the sky. In April Capricorn rises in the east about midnight.

Zodiac transforms in the twelve apostles of The Last Supper from right to left
1 Aries: hands: Flip and rotate 30° right
2 Taurus: hands: Rotate 150° left
3 Gemini: arms: Rotate 45° left, skew
4 Cancer: head and arms: Rotate 165° right
5 Leo: hands: Rotate 45° right, flatten and stretch
6 Virgo: hand: Rotate 90° left, shrink

Christ - Pisces - hands, arms, head, Rotate 120° right

7 Libra: arms and hands: Rotate 165° right
8 Scorpio: head, body, hand and sword: no change
9 Sagittarius: whole body: Rotate 60° right
10 Capricorn: head and hands: Rotate 45° left
11 Aquarius: head, left arm and body: Rotate 15° left
12 Pisces: hands, arms and shoulder clasp: Rotate 120° right


The biggest three changes are Leo, which is flattened and stretched, Gemini, which is slightly skewed, and Aries, which is flipped. Nonetheless, the basic shape of even these constellations is still clearly apparent despite these distortions. The other nine are just rotated, and Virgo is shrunk.

In my new diagram of the constellations in The Last Supper, the coloured lines connect the points of the traditional stick figures for the twelve constellations of the zodiac as shown. These star maps go back to the Almagest of Claudius Ptolemy in the ancient world as among his 48 traditional constellations. I have used the traditional constellations from astronomy software SkyGazer 4.5.

In the medieval world there was a major tradition of depicting Christ with the twelve signs of the zodiac, as in prominent stained glass windows at the cathedrals of Chartres and St Denis - copied below. Leonardo has continued this high tradition in The Last Supper. The invisibility of this obvious code for 500 years is a testament to the power of delusion in Western thought. The only argument against this material is that no one has seen it before, but that is just a fallacious appeal to authority, the old argument used to stymie all new discovery. Leonardo prudently protected his masterwork by keeping its code a secret. Now as we reach more enlightened times there is no danger, and much opportunity for understanding, in examining this amazing new/old information.


St Denis Cathedral


Chartres Cathedral

Lol!!!

I think my question to you would be, are you able to step back from your subject sufficiently to realize how your proposal appears to the uninitiated? The correspondence between the figures in the painting and the schematic star patterns that make up the Zodiac signs seems low to my eye. That's all I'm saying. If you gave the scrambled constellation outlines to some average people and asked them to place them across the painting, how many different results would you get? You might say, of course it's not gong to be obvious; LD couldn't make it too obvious; or, you have to know something about astrology to be able to appreciate the likeness. But that just seems to open up room for reasonable skepticism. I think it's quite out of bounds to say that disagreement with the conclusion equals bigoted thinking.