Dawn wrote:Fortunately He's benevolent and 'not willing that any should perish'.

And what if the wrath of God really remains on those who do not believe in the Son (John 3:36)?

Which is it?

I am sympathetic to your demand for answers.

We have enough information to gather an answer. By telling me to rely on God rather than believe what is said in the bible, you are telling me to selectively disregard a portion of the text as false. Either I can't trust god, or I can't trust the bible. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There is nothing telling me that I should have faith in god. Why are you telling me I should? I'm not trusting answers that come from your book if you're telling me to disregard parts of your book as false. The alternative is to go off what other people have "told" you about god, or your own imaginings. Then there is no anchor to reality, it all depends on another person's fantasy.

Dawn, where is your anchor to reality here? You're just believing stuff without any reason.

It's your choice. I do know this that if you genuinely seek to know whether He really is true, He is will show you, and you will see plenty of evidence.

I've been there. It's all subjective evidence. It changes with your belief. That precise same evidence takes on an entirely different meaning when seen through the lens of a different worldview. There are other worldviews in which you can see this evidence for what it is, and also have empirical evidence in vast quantities that fits together perfectly with the subjective evidence. It's really quite easy to see which worldview is correct when you realize this subjective evidence is transferrable.

Dexter wrote:

Dawn wrote:Fortunately He's benevolent and 'not willing that any should perish'.

And what if the wrath of God really remains on those who do not believe in the Son (John 3:36)?

Which is it?

Dexter should know better but continues to think that taking verses out of context is an effective way of criticizing the Bible and Christainity. Dexter other BT members have been encouraged to participate in comprehensive discussions of the Bible but prefer to snipe instead of learn. For those who are open minded I refer you to the full texts in question:

II Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

and

John 3
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

The life being offered is eternal life with God. Why would God force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.

Christianity the one true faith, how come the rest of the world is not convinced?

The life being offered is eternal life with God. Why would God force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.

If god is listening, I want him to know right now that if he truly does exist, I would love to spend eternity with him in heaven. He does not need to force this upon me. I would gladly go there. But in my mortal life, he hasn't planted enough evidence to convince a person such as myself that he exists, or that faith is a virtue. So I do not believe in him. But I would still want him to "force" me to go to heaven if it exists.

This is nothing but the inverse of Pascal's Wager. Sure, I would love to avoid eternal torment, but I don't believe any such thing exists.

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

There isn't sufficient evidence to believe in a god. I suspect that is because there is no god(here's your sign). But if there is a god and he hasn't given me enough reason to believe in him, then it doesn't matter how long he waits, I'm not going to suddenly magically believe in him at some point before I die. If I continue to 'not believe' until I die, then your passage changes nothing about the context. I will still go to hell to suffer eternally, and it is god's fault. I do not get to pick and choose the standards by which I critically analyze my worldviews. The rubrics are based on reasoning and observation, and they tell me that god is either sleeping, or doesn't exist. I cannot be blamed for arriving at those conclusions. There must be more evidence or reasoning, plain and simple. I would love for there to be a god, but I cannot see it. He is missing at every place he should be. He simply left nothing in this world to convince me he is real. You've tried for over a year now to change my mind Stahrwe, and all your best attempts have failed. I'm not being stubborn, there simply isn't enough evidence nor reasoning.

So we're supposed to believe the following:

God has created heaven, the most awesomest place imaginable, but before you get there, he has created Earth for you to live out a short life, he gave us the Bible which only talks about the Middle East and appears to be written by fallible men with the moral precepts of the time, and he requires his creations to profess their faith in him, then you can go to heaven. Otherwise, despite the fact that he loves you, you're out.

An absurd worldview.

Interbane wrote:

Frank wrote:who are Christians to judge or condom me?

You'd look funny inside a condom. I thought the Pope was against that though?

Not if you throw in a couple of small boys. Oh that's sick! Should not have typed it oh well the most I will get out of it is a slap on the wrists...why not thats all the priests get........

Interbane wrote: If god is listening, I want him to know right now that if he truly does exist, I would love to spend eternity with him in heaven. He does not need to force this upon me. I would gladly go there. But in my mortal life, he hasn't planted enough evidence to convince a person such as myself that he exists, or that faith is a virtue. So I do not believe in him. But I would still want him to "force" me to go to heaven if it exists.

doesn't work that way.
You are trusting the wrong thing.
You know what you have to do. It's up to each of us to make our own choice. If you want to base you decision on 'evidence' that is you choice but don't blame God.

DWill wrote:

Dawn wrote: So what do you propose? Can every system of beliefs be equally right? Tolerance is one thing. Even Christianity, especially Christianity, recognizes that people have the right to believe what they want. That does not mean that all beliefs have equal virtue. And I think I see your frustration. It would be legitimate if we were all just products of an evolved state trying to make our way in the world willy nilly as best we can contrive. But if you figure in a Supreme God who set up Laws we call science and the Laws we call 'good morals' then suddenly the scenario changes and Someone does have the right to make dogmatic claims. He is the ultimate 'because i say so'. There is a King ideology.

I think there's no need to compare systems; that brings in too much content to manage. What we have here is just an element of a system, and yes, I think we can say that one form of it is more right than another. It's more right to see beliefs that others have as perhaps just as worthy for them as yours are for you. To assign punishments for 'false' beliefs is arbitrary and not morally right. I don't want to make too big a thing of this, because no one has been directly harmed, and you can probably see why I say that.

No need to respond to this, but all this stating of what's morally right, or 'more right', and using the criteria that no one has been harmed...seems to have a pretty shaky foundation. But moving right along...

DWill wrote:
Off topic, but maybe not so much, is a film I saw last night called "Water." Made in Sri Lanka, it tells of the plight of Indian widows,... As Christopher Hitchens said in God is Not Great, there is no Eastern solution to the problem of religion.

I've heard about this movie but not watched it (yet), yes India does make a good demonstration of how destructive misplaced belief can be to a nation. Have you read the story of Amy Carmichael? http://www.christianhistorytimeline.com ... s132.shtml --her primary mission was to rescue little girls sold as temple prostitutes. Incredible story. (Good writer too!)

Interbane wrote:

I am sympathetic to your demand for answers.

We have enough information to gather an answer. By telling me to rely on God rather than believe what is said in the bible, you are telling me to selectively disregard a portion of the text as false. Either I can't trust god, or I can't trust the bible. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There is nothing telling me that I should have faith in god. Why are you telling me I should? I'm not trusting answers that come from your book if you're telling me to disregard parts of your book as false. The alternative is to go off what other people have "told" you about god, or your own imaginings. Then there is no anchor to reality, it all depends on another person's fantasy.

Dawn, where is your anchor to reality here? You're just believing stuff without any reason.

Interbane, I'm afraid I'm not following your assertions of 'what I said' as stated above.

I will repeat it here for clarification:

I am sympathetic to your demand for answers. I am however content to let God be God. Knowing He is just and good, I am willing to trust Him for the likes of Anne Frank and Interbane as well. I do know that His thoughts are not our thoughts, or His ways ours. (That's why He's spelled out so many of them in the Bible, as per my previous answer) I will take you at your word that you have the well-being of humanity in mind but I had rather trust God with the well-being of humanity; He has a vested interest in the likes of us! and was willing to die to make it known. That's a better track record than any man I know. You don't have to do it His way. You don't have to believe in what you can't see. It's your choice. I do know this that if you genuinely seek to know whether He really is true, He is will show you, and you will see plenty of evidence.

To let God be God does not imply I don't believe what the Bible says. I'm confused as to where you got this?

God's goodness and justice do not preclude the existence of a hell.
Heaven is His home. You have no right to go banging down the door of a stranger and demand entrance. If you missed the invitation He sent out you'll find it on the shelf that contains your Bible. Read it. It's for you.