No and Yes Stahrwe.

No it was not posted in the MP, it was posted as an entirely new thread in the atheist forum.

Yes, I posted it there and then posted it here in this discussion as well because it deals precisely with the topic of modern morality. The bible is not a moral book! It's a mix match of some moral and many more immoral thoughts, actions, and ideas many of which are no longer revelent to modern society. To claim that the bible is necessary for a moral society in this day and age is pure bunk and this letter makes light of the fact.

It is my work if you consider that I spent time and energy into finding it on a database of public domain avatar images.

As to your Christian friend I have known atheists who have been unable to adhere to their own standards of morality. Everyone does it. We are but human. What religion offers is absolution and belonging. True enough these things can be found without religion, but it's often difficult to come by and for those who have already been exposed to it; it may seem impossible. Only one of many reasons that we will never be rid of religion.

I can't tell you how great it feels to find like-mindeds out there. It's a major relief.

tat tvam asi wrote:No and Yes Stahrwe.

No it was not posted in the MP, it was posted as an entirely new thread in the atheist forum.

Yes, I posted it there and then posted it here in this discussion as well because it deals precisely with the topic of modern morality. The bible is not a moral book! It's a mix match of some moral and many more immoral thoughts, actions, and ideas many of which are no longer revelent to modern society. To claim that the bible is necessary for a moral society in this day and age is pure bunk and this letter makes light of the fact.

Well, you might want to check those 'facts' I already pointed out an error in the letter and there are more to come. Will you edit and repost the letter as the errors are explained?

From the letter posted by Tat:

"4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

Unless you are in Jerusalem, at the place currently occupied by the Dome of the Rock you should not be sacrificing, therefore I must conclude that it is not a religious observance they are objecting to but your skills at backyard BBQ. In this case, I suggest that you watch The Food Network or give up and cook indoors.

that's 2

Oh, and by the way, to sacrifice you must be a descendant of the tribe of Levi. I doubt you are but I will only charge you with one strike for this.

WhimsicalWonder wrote:I am able to step outside of my little world, and even still I don't see the world being freed from religion or religious fanaticism. The fact that I'm not sure I'd like to is probably based on the very thing they want me to believe... that the world would collapse without it's blanket... But my world did collapse when the blanket was ripped from me, so perhaps that's another bit of my bias.

I think I know what you mean if you're talking about the way you felt when your religious ideas fell apart and you consciously acknowledged it. I'm not sure how the blanket was ripped from you but if you were to expand on it a little more I'm sure that it would help to clarify what you are trying to express here. In my case I was raised devout SDA Christian believing in a six thousand year old earth created over the course of six literal days. My awareness of the folly involved with this religious ideology came very sudden. But the only one who ripped the blanket away was me at around age 15 when I suddenly hit the age of reason oriented thinking. But I was fine. I re-adjusted and got on with things.

But what has happened in the European countries is something a little different I think. It isn't the case of an abrupt change, rather it's the case of countries that were pagan and then later Christianized for the most part gradually growing out of religion altogether over a period of time. It's not like someone came along and ripped religion away from these people, it's that the people eventually grew out of it.

...I believe Mr. Tulip is right on the money here. We will never be free from religion, so the real question is what can we do to influence religious belief? Seems a far more productive line of discussion.

That sounds very probable but would you assert this with absolute certainty? How could you? What if some one were to say back in the early 1800's in Georgia, "We will never be free from Slavery"? I would suggest caution in projecting the future state of this country or the world in any absolute sense. But in terms of the assumption that religion will continue on for centuries into the future I agree with Roberts Christian reformation moment ideas as well.

From the letter Tat posted:

"9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?"

Unless you are Jewish this is not a problem. Additionally footballs have not been made of actual pigs for decades.

That's 3

tat tvam asi wrote:No and Yes Stahrwe.

No it was not posted in the MP, it was posted as an entirely new thread in the atheist forum.

Yes, I posted it there and then posted it here in this discussion as well because it deals precisely with the topic of modern morality. The bible is not a moral book! It's a mix match of some moral and many more immoral thoughts, actions, and ideas many of which are no longer revelent to modern society. To claim that the bible is necessary for a moral society in this day and age is pure bunk and this letter makes light of the fact.

Excuse me, you cross posted in the Morality of the Bible discussion. Its relevance is not the issue, the problem is that cross posting leads to confusion in the discussion

That is true, Star.

I would recommend a statement like "Lets discuss this topic here:http://www.booktalk.org/post71267.html#p71267"

Which makes sense specifically in this case as it is the opening post of that thread, so it would lead me to think that discussion of that issue would be done there.

Whimsical Wonder, let me introduce you to our book talk forums token Christian Fundamentalist, Staaaaaaaaaaaaahrwe!

Yes ladies and gentlemen you've seen him in threads such as "Young Earth Creationism Put to Rest!" and "The Mythicist Position" carry the flaming sword of his imaginary lord and master, "Jesus - ElSaviorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr - Christ!"

He's back with a vengeance to make straight the way of the lord. Now what better representation of the folly of trying to extend out dated ancient religion into modern times could I ask for?

As to your Christian friend I have known atheists who have been unable to adhere to their own standards of morality. Everyone does it. We are but human. What religion offers is absolution and belonging. True enough these things can be found without religion, but it's often difficult to come by and for those who have already been exposed to it; it may seem impossible. Only one of many reasons that we will never be rid of religion.

I was not trying to imply that athiests did not do the same. The point being, we all do that, to an extent. Whether it is a big thing like breaking a law, or a small thing like taking the last slice of pizza.

The difference being that the religious are quick to claim the moral high ground on many issues attempting to use their religion as the backing of that claim, when in actuality, they themselves are using no more accurate an instrument than anyone else to judge morality. That is, of course, their own brain. Subject to predjudice, persuasion, snap judgement, and bais. Everyone comes to their own conclusions, but when you feel as though you hold a judgement based on some sublime insight, or revelation from a supreme moral authority there is no avenue for even the possibility that you might be wrong to find its way to you.

I hold my positions because i have a level of confidence that they are correct. That is not to say that i think they are correct absolutely. With the proper evidence i can and have changed my mind on many things because i realize that i came to my own conclusions, and they very well could be wrong. I used to have a much more close minded view on homosexuality. I was never a gay-basher, but i did think of it as a kind of mental disease, or handi-cap. I held those views because i was mis-informed.

The noisiest religious people hold that view, still, based on mis-information. including the mis-information that the bible is full of anti-gay rhetoric. Despite ample opportunity to change their minds based on cold facts and open, honest communication with real-life gays (rather than the marauding throng of rapists depicted here:

Genesis 19:4-5 describes what followed, which confirms its end (RSV):

But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of
Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them (KJV: know them, RSV: know them, NIV: can have sex with them , NJB: can have intercourse with them)."

They stubbornly hold onto their anti-gay attitudes because they have post-dated their predjudice to belong to God.

The same with the pathetic young earth creationism stance, intelligent design, and "god causes natural dissasters to punish moral issues.

Realizing that you came to your own conclusions allows you the lattitude to realize you may be wrong, or that others can be right. Here's a quote i enjoy.

"When i was young i was absolutely sure that i had all the right answers. When i grew older, i realized that i was right about all of those things, but i also realized that there are many OTHER ways to be right."

So, while i may like my beer because it tastes great. Someone else is not wrong to like it because it is less filling.