Reinventing Capitalism
Title | Reinventing Capitalism |
Author | Howard Bloom |
Date | October 14, 2004 |
N/A | |
N/A |
Transcript of live chat session
connected: ezChat version 0.54
Naturyl:: Hello Howard
howbloom:: Naturyl, hi.
what's your name?
(jznet joined)
Naturyl: Jim
(tarav joined)
howbloom: ahhhh, Jim
howbloom: tell me more about yourself
tarav: hello
(#Kostya joined)
Naturyl: Well, I'm an Internet writer. I run a
few communities, and I developed a worldview known
as "dialectical monism."
howbloom: aha, people are
piling in rapidly. hello, hello
jznet: rock n roll
(Chris OConnor joined)
#Kostya: Hi
Naturyl: I'm 29 and live in the "fine"
state of Alabama. I am in the process of writing
a book.
Chris OConnor: One sec please
howbloom: dialectical monism
sounds like the subject of at least one entire
chat session
Chris OConnor: Hey guys
howbloom: hi, chris
Chris OConnor: I'm babysitting while doing this
tarav: hey, chris
howbloom: aha
Chris OConnor: Hey Howard :) Good to see you
howbloom: :)
(quibbiteer joined)
Naturyl: Thanks, Howard. I'd be glad to do such
a chat if asked.
Chris OConnor: Emily is 5 and Courtney is 10 and
they are awesome
Chris OConnor: Howard - thank you for spending
some time with us tonight ;)
howbloom: chris, those are
your kids through the fractured marriage?
Chris OConnor: Howard - No, they're my brothers
kids
Chris OConnor: My two nieces
tarav: better you than me chris!
howbloom: ahjhhhhh
Chris OConnor: haha I know
howbloom: I'm discovering
that infants can be cute
howbloom: I've been trying to see at what age
they turn social
Chris OConnor: I expect plenty to stagger in the
next 15 minutes. People are always late. How long
have you been in here Howard?
(Nostradafemme joined)
tarav: they are cute when they belong to someone
else
Chris OConnor: Hello Gerry :)
howbloom: all by random
sampling from my new office, a rattan couch outside
a local tea lounge
Nostradafemme: hi chris. nice to be here.
Chris OConnor: I don't know if I'll ever have
the energy to be a father. But I am pretty domestic.
howbloom: I got here three
or four minutes ago
Chris OConnor: Ok, good
howbloom: had to give myself
lots of time to log on...it's a tortuous process
Chris OConnor: It is exactly 9pm...we can wait
a few seconds if you're ok with that
Chris OConnor: lol
howbloom: so tonight we
are talking about Reinventing Capitalism, right?
Chris OConnor: I liked out other chat room, but
it made things confusing to have 2 chat rooms
Chris OConnor: Yes, Howard
howbloom: chris, you are
gracefully allowing me to run a grand experiment
Chris OConnor: And we can discuss the Iraq situation,
the upcoming election, and anything else you hold
dear
Naturyl: Oh, this is going to be good. Capitalism,
what a fascinating subject.
Chris OConnor: Naturally Howard
howbloom: to test the first
draft of a book on readers and get their input
Chris OConnor: you were our best guest to date
howbloom: before I write
the final draft
howbloom: ahhh, chris, you warm the cockles and
the muscles of my heart
Chris OConnor: About 15 members asked for copies
of Reinventing Capitalism and I emailed the file
to them
howbloom: great
Chris OConnor: Hopefully several of those are
here tonight
howbloom: has anyone in this room had time to
glance at the first draft?
tarav: i have it, but haven't read it yet--sorry
tarav: i plan to though
howbloom: that's ok
howbloom: who has read it?
tarav: so many books...so little time
Naturyl: I don't come to BookTalk often enough.
If I'd known I could have gotten such a draft,
I'd have asked for it
howbloom: my agony exactly,
tarav
Chris OConnor: I have read some
Chris OConnor: Naturyl - howdy
tarav: you should come more! lol
Chris OConnor: one sec
Naturyl: Hi Chris
jznet: read it for the WIE magazine edit
howbloom: chris, can you
do me a favor and send Naturyl a draft?
Chris OConnor: I can email it right now
howbloom: thanks
Chris OConnor: Naturyl - can you post your email
right now?
howbloom: ok, why don't
we begin
Naturyl: [email protected]
Naturyl: thanks so much
howbloom: let me tell you
what I'm doing right now, today
howbloom: and get your reaction to it, ok?
Chris OConnor: Ok, sending it right now
howbloom: I am trying to
save Western Civilization
Chris OConnor: Ok, done
howbloom: a small and grubby
task, but someone's gotta do it
Nostradafemme: yes, I've read R.C. and absolutely
enjoyed it. Thought if was visually exciting.
howbloom: by the way, chris,
can you send me a transcript when this is over?
Chris OConnor: Commendable
Chris OConnor: Howard - certainly :)
howbloom: ahh, Gerry, you
always make me feel warm
Naturyl: Yes, and none too soon. It certainly
could use some saving.
Chris OConnor: And we will also post it right
here https://www.booktalk.org/transcript11.php
howbloom: I started out
to try to save our civilization, yours and mine
Nostradafemme: well Howard, you're welcome. I
loved the pics, graphics, and story line.
howbloom: by putting a mirror
up to it and showing it how to perceive itself
howbloom: by the way, Gerry, the graphics are
now gone from the book--I loved them too
howbloom: every one of us is a capitalist in some
small way
Nostradafemme: oh, no. that was what I related
to most!
Chris OConnor: several others just logged in
howbloom: every one of us
is a participant in the western system
(MichaelangeloGlossolalia joined)
howbloom: and the western
system has more than just capitalism at its heart
Chris OConnor: Howard - I have referred about
5 people to Lucifer Principle and they have all
enjoyed it. So far it is my fav book
Chris OConnor: Hey Michael :)
howbloom: it also has a
protest industry
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: hi guys
howbloom: hi Michael
howbloom: the two work hand in hand
howbloom: and side by side
howbloom: and each needs a radical upgrade
jznet: long name there M
howbloom: capitalism needs
soul
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the military-industrial-media-pharmaceutical-protest
complex?
howbloom: and protest needs
creative solutions
Chris OConnor: Just for everyone's info I will
start recording a transcript soon and I ONLY edit
misspellings, profanity of weird stuff. No content
is edited.
howbloom: yes, you and I
are a part of the protest industry, Michael
howbloom: but to be successful at what we do
howbloom: to achieve our goals
jznet: ah, the weird stuff can be the best though
howbloom: we have to sell
what we do
Naturyl: I want to ask how capitalism can gain
soul, but I'm assuming that will be answered in
the draft, which is now downloading over my slow
dial-up connection
howbloom: we have to persuade
others
howbloom: Naturyl, I will try to answer that question
as I ramble forward
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Capitalism gains soul
by accelerating the process of making invisible
realities visible, with as little distortion as
possible.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: (in my opinion)
howbloom: it was very hard
for me when I was in my 20s to realize that to
be a person with a brain who was dedicated to
new insights
Chris OConnor: Maybe Howard will explain it a
little too
howbloom: to new solutions
and to new points of view
howbloom: i was going to have to learn to sell
howbloom: the word selling has a smarmy connotation
in our culture
howbloom: or at least the culture I aspired to
howbloom: the intellectual elite
Chris OConnor: Ok, lets start. I see several people
on the site that have yet to enter the chat room.
I'll start recording a transcript, which is a
manual process of copying and pasting.
(RickU joined)
Chris OConnor: Welcome Howard Bloom! We all sincerely
appreciate you taking time out of your busy life
to chat with us.
Nostradafemme: I wonder if Howard would consider
defining capitalism as it is known in 2004?
howbloom: even Death of
a Salesman, a play that's a must-know item
Chris OConnor: Welcome Rick - pull up a chair
RickU: Thanks Chris
howbloom: if you want to
gain intellectual elite status
Chris OConnor: I loved that play, but how depressing
Howard
howbloom: in a funny way
puts down Willy Loman
howbloom: it is about the
death of the concept of selling within the intellectual
elite as well as the tragedy of willy Loman
Chris OConnor: Is Willy Loman the main character?
howbloom: though Arthur
Miller says "attention must be paid to this
man"
RickU: Not in a funny way Mr. Bloom - it rejects
Loman as a person
howbloom: yes, he's the
salesman who collapses in the end
howbloom: yes, it empathizes and rejects
Chris OConnor: Anyone in sales knows that many
a sales person collapses in the end. What a brutal
life of ups and downs.
howbloom: it tosses Loman
into an intellectual wastebasket as an unfortunate
victim from a subordinate class
howbloom: the stance of the play is a dominance
position
howbloom: in a strange way Miller uses Loman
howbloom: he denigrates him
howbloom: so confessing to yourself that you are
a salesman
howbloom: is an absolute no-no if you want to
feel that your real crowd
Nostradafemme: in most companies, Howard, salesmen
have a prime role.
howbloom: the crowd that
you aspire to
howbloom: the crowd that is your real home
Chris OConnor: hmm
howbloom: is the crowd of
Harold Bloom
howbloom: the crowd of the writers in
RickU: The salesman in this instance is more of
an analogy for the common man
howbloom: The New York Review
of Books
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: difference between "salesman"
and "entrepreneur" is belief in the
product. "Salesman" implies the possibility
of inflating the product to get more sales.
howbloom: The New York Times
RickU: Common man is bad - sorry -
howbloom: The New Yorker
RickU: By that I mean the mundane
howbloom: there is a glory
in the common man that we intellectual snobs don't
see
howbloom: but that's getting ahead of my story
howbloom: bear with me while I try to tell you
this tale, ok?
Chris OConnor: An author recently sent me the
rough draft of his new book which draws a correlation
between natural selection and Capitalism. Looks
incredible so far.
Chris OConnor: Take your time Howard
RickU: I AM a snob - and I don't see the glory.
But I DO see the intrinsic value
RickU: And indeed. Listening so to speak
howbloom: lesson one, I
woke up to the fact that if I was going to achieve
any of my goals in life
howbloom: little goals like
saving western civilization
howbloom: I was going to have to persuade people
howbloom: I was going to have to insert what I
believed in into other people's lives
Chris OConnor: And what a persuader you are
howbloom: a lot of that
persuading would take very hard work in a realm
I was supposed to disdain
howbloom: in the realm of selling
howbloom: it was a hard thing to confess, much
harder than it looks on your monitor
RickU: A problem we all face here Howard
Naturyl: Yes, this is something important
howbloom: when I finally
embraced the word "salesman"
howbloom: I got a call from a friend
howbloom: I had helped start a small thing in
the sixties called the hippie movement
howbloom: this friend was a sort of hippy groupie
howbloom: she loved hanging around folks of hippie
fame
howbloom: for example when Robert Crumb, the famous
and ultimate hippy cartoonist
howbloom: showed up at my art studio
howbloom: my friend, dove, showed up
howbloom: latched on to him
howbloom: and made damned sure she had sex with
him
howbloom: that was scoring a point in her hippie
report card
howbloom: she didn't just get an e for effort
howbloom: she got an a for vaginal penetration
or oral sex, I'm not sure which
Chris OConnor: Hmm
howbloom: but I, being young
and innocent
Chris OConnor: lovely
howbloom: thought she was
one of my best friends
howbloom: after all, she had taken me out for
thanksgiving dinner at the house where the fugs
were living
howbloom: the ultimate hippy
rock group
howbloom: and we had a wonderful time
howbloom: sharing thanksgiving mean intimacy,
right?
howbloom: it means friendship
(#LanDroid joined)
howbloom: she'd also taken
me to Sam Shepherd's wedding to the actress Karen
Black
howbloom: it was at the heart of the East Village
howbloom: the saint marks church
howbloom: the Vatican of hippiedom
Chris OConnor: Welcome Lan
howbloom: there was cool
aid in the punch and all the signs that this was
the exclusive club of the hippie aristocracy
#LanDroid: Howdy...
howbloom: so dove called
on the very day in which I'd been forced to embrace
the fact that one must persuade, one must sell,
one must spread ideas if you think they have the
power to save anyone
howbloom: the instant I told dove I was going
to have to "sell"
howbloom: her voice turned cold
howbloom: after years of what I thought was close,
close friendship
Chris OConnor: Allergic to sales
howbloom: she disappeared
from my life
howbloom: disappeared utterly
Chris OConnor: We're all salespeople, but some
of us get paid
howbloom: 30 years later
I tracked her down again
howbloom: and sent her an email telling her I'd
been hurt when she dropped me
howbloom: she sent back such a disdainful email
that I will probably never communicate with her
again in my life
RickU: All capitalists are salespeople in their
kind. They, at the very least, sell their talents.
RickU: That's terrible Howard -
howbloom: that is the price
you can pay for admitting to yourself or to others
that you have to sell to save anyone
Chris OConnor: What was her reasoning?
Naturyl: Some folks react quite strongly to the
idea of trying to influence others. It all sounds
like proselytizing to the ears of some.
howbloom: no reasoning,
RickU: No reasoning indeed
howbloom: telling your friends
that you've fucked Robert crumb makes you big
Chris OConnor: People are strange.
howbloom: telling friends
that you know a salesman gets you kicked out of
the room
#LanDroid: Ohhh Mr. Natural.
howbloom: it makes you small,
to say the least
howbloom: the point I'm getting at has to do with
how to put soul in the machine
Naturyl: Yes, that is a strange way to think.
I wonder why people would have trouble with the
idea that you have to sell people on ideas?
howbloom: you can't put
soul in your work
howbloom: if you despise what you do
howbloom: you can't put soul in your work
howbloom: if you believe that it's beneath you
howbloom: you can't put soul into your work if
you separate it from your "real life"
howbloom: you can't put soul into your work if
you "real life" begins at 5pm when you
go home
RickU: And putting your soul into your work is
the only thing that makes "work" tolerable
to intellectuals
howbloom: your real life
is your work
howbloom: and if you know that you can begin to
put your passion where it matters
howbloom: into the work that you do every day
howbloom: now back to the story
Chris OConnor: True Rick
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: "sell" has
many connotations
howbloom: the story of another
revelation
howbloom: about soul in the machine
Chris OConnor: The machine of capitalism?
howbloom: I had founded
and was running an art studio
howbloom: it was my way of escaping academia
Naturyl: Ala Descartes' "ghost in the machine?"
howbloom: it was my voyage
of the beagle into what interested me most passionately
howbloom: finding the gods inside of us
RickU: Wait, why would you want to escape academia?
howbloom: finding the things
that make our personal emotions roar
howbloom: that make them soar
jznet: and ghost in the shell
howbloom: that make them
utterly transcend our flesh
Chris OConnor: Howard loves the real world interacting
with the masses - figuring out what makes them
tick
howbloom: and those emotions
come to a peak in the rituals of groups
Naturyl: I don't know about Mr. Bloom, but I think
I'd want to escape it, Rick. Academia is pretty
dead, philosophically.
Chris OConnor: ...a social scientist
howbloom: they come to a
peak in a holy roller church when Christ grabs
hold of
howbloom: James Baldwin and he writhes on the
floor for fourteen hours
howbloom: possessed by a god
howbloom: since there are no gods in the heavens
RickU: Nat - I'm truly wondering. I had guessed
"Academia" to be a glorious place to
interact.
howbloom: the god that possesses
him has to be inside of him
Naturyl: That's always fascinated me. I've always
wondered what causes such behavior
howbloom: where is it, what
is it, how do I get to feel it, and how do I manage
to explain it with my toolkit
howbloom: my vocabulary
howbloom: the only set of tools I have
howbloom: the tools of science?
howbloom: when a dozen men beat on drums in a
macumba ritual
howbloom: in south America
howbloom: and one man is seized as James Baldwin
is
howbloom: by yet another god
howbloom: whose name we north Americans don't
know
Naturyl: Rick - maybe it is, but I don't think
that modern academia is a good place to ask the
questions that really matter. It seems to be about
philogy rather than philosophy. For example, with
the rise of analytic philosophy, metaphysics has
become a black sheep. But I'm blabbing too much.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: If you want academia
spend a lot of time cross-referencing ideas in
Google. Or go to a library for a long time. Human
groups get stale and distort everything.
howbloom: and he too writhes
in pain and passion, sweat and ecstasy
howbloom: where is the god inside of him that
has taken him over so utterly?
howbloom: why is there a god inside of him?
Chris OConnor: His imagination
howbloom: why is there a
god inside of all of us
howbloom: once upon a time
howbloom: in the middle of the 20th century
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: any group dedicated
to preserving itself as a group comes to distort
things after a while. As soon as there's an inside
narrative and an outside one and they don't intersect.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: academia included
howbloom: there was a man
who knew how to gather groups of a quarter of
a million people
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Barnum?
Naturyl: Hitler?
howbloom: and do to them
what the Macumba drummers and their rituals did
to the man who was seized by a god
howbloom: Naturyl got it
Naturyl: got to be Hitler
howbloom: Hitler gave a
quarter of a million people
howbloom: participating in or watching a torchlight
parade
howbloom: an ecstatic sense of being lifted out
of themselves
howbloom: of touching something divine
howbloom: the soul of the volk
howbloom: the soul of the people
howbloom: the soul of Germany herself
Chris OConnor: volk = folk?
howbloom: the soul of her
roots
howbloom: the soul of her future
howbloom: ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuehrer
howbloom: they chanted in their ecstasy
Chris OConnor: Umm ok. I knew that.
Naturyl: people, nation, leader
Naturyl: all one
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Hitler had poor boundary
definition. Showing weakness terrified him. He
surrounded himself with bullies whose anger he
could direct outward, away from himself. The entire
country became a Freudian sphincter, eliminating
the "parasite".
howbloom: this was another
aspect of the god inside
RickU: lol@Chris - can't blame you for not knowing
German
howbloom: it comes alive
in the rituals of groups
Chris OConnor: Thanks Rick ;)
howbloom: it seems to be
the most personal experience we can have
RickU: But now I know how to insult you.
howbloom: but it puts us
in touch with something we feel is far, far bigger
than ourselves
howbloom: and we need that ecstasy
Chris OConnor: Interesting Michael. A Freudian
sphincter.
howbloom: we need that sense
of meaning
RickU: I don't know Howard.
RickU: It didn't put me in touch with anything
bigger than myself
Chris OConnor: Most of us need that
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: sphincter=elimination,
shame, perfectionism
howbloom: we need that sense
of being lifted and of touching something higher
Naturyl: MG - I think that what Howard is getting
at is the idea of how Hitler did what he did.
Hitler was a bad leader, but it can't change the
fact that he knew how to connect with people.
howbloom: something deep
inside ourselves that is divine
RickU: I think we need to analyze WHY people think
that they need that.
Chris OConnor: Michael - I like it
RickU: My wife needs it
howbloom: I wanted to seek
the gods inside
Naturyl: Rick - you weren't in 1930's Germany
howbloom: now way could
I do it in academia
RickU: That I understand.
howbloom: so when I got
four fellowships
howbloom: to four different grad schools
RickU: But WHY did you feel the need to seek something
greater?
howbloom: I turned them
down and pulled a great escape
RickU: That's the crux of what I don't get.
Chris OConnor: Because he desires to touch people
I think
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Hitler could read the
vibes of a group. Most intellectuals can't, they're
too deep in their heads.
howbloom: I jumped ship
Chris OConnor: multiply his efforts
howbloom: I looked for my
Beagle--for my equivalent of the ship that Darwin
took
Naturyl: I think that some people don't feel such
a need, but the majority does. I will admit that
I do. It's what drives me to ask big questions.
howbloom: to find his specimens
in south America
Chris OConnor: Me too Naturyl
howbloom: the specimens
he needed to put together a theory whose puzzles
were percolating in his mind
howbloom: for me the Beagle was an art studio
I co-founded
howbloom: and that's when I realized I needed
to sell
RickU: Isn't there a difference though Howard?
howbloom: I believed in
my artists passionately
Chris OConnor: interesting
howbloom: I loved the work
they did with every sinew in me
RickU: Darwin rode Beagle in search of answers
to his theory
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: should have started
an advertising agency... I think you'd have done
well at it.
howbloom: they were being
kicked out of their apartments for not paying
the rent
Chris OConnor: I wish I appreciated art the way
some of you do. Music, this I have a passion for
howbloom: I wanted to make
them a living
howbloom: I believed in them so I was going to
have to sell them
Naturyl: So, your desire to share what your artists
were doing with the rest of the world convinced
you of the value of selling?
RickU: But in this metaphysical argument, you
can't find answers that can be quantified
howbloom: the day I accepted
that word, "sell", was the day I lost
a friend I loved
howbloom: dove
jznet: some may consider music the highest form
of 'art'
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: anticipating art is
a good way to appreciate it. looking backwards
isn't really what art is for, it's to see possibilities
that aren't visible yet.
Chris OConnor: jz - Jason, right?
howbloom: music and visual
art are two things that hit us in places we don't
know
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: music is a really pure
art, it's mostly mathematical and architectural
Naturyl: I guess we have to be prepared to sacrifice
in pursuit of these big ideas.
jznet: sometimes:]
howbloom: we can feel it
but we have a hard time putting it into words
Chris OConnor: lol
Naturyl: sacrifice.
RickU: I don't think so Howard
RickU: Music and visual art always hit me. When
they hit me...in places that I DO know
RickU: And I don't feel the lesser for it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you have to sacrifice
the tendency to distort your message to fit an
audience's preconceptions. Human groups, including
audiences, have a gravity to them.
Chris OConnor: Howard - I agree. I can't explain
it but music changes my chemistry with just a
few notes
tarav: i would have to agree with Rick here
Nostradafemme: guests just arrived. gotta go.
(Nostradafemme left)
Chris OConnor: Bye Gerry :)
howbloom: rather than diving
into Rick's point, bear with me
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: maybe emotions are geometric
ratios on some level
Chris OConnor: Ok, continue Howard
howbloom: I'm going to try
to tell you how I learned the next lesson
howbloom: in putting soul in the machine
Chris OConnor: ok
jznet: i do not know how accurate it is but i
came up with a tag for music that it is the remote
control of the soul
Naturyl: Rick and tarav - I don't think anyone
would suggest that you guys are the lesser for
not having that desire to look deeper. I think
some people just aren't wired that way - but most
are
Chris OConnor: jz - I like that
howbloom: Albert Einstein's
book on relativity told me something strange when
I was in eighth grade
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: :thinks music is more
like a Rorschach text, but different intervals
have an affinity for different emotions, based
on feelings of "falling away" and "approaching
with anticipation" etc.
Chris OConnor: Music helped me through rough times
when I was young...and I cannot fully explain
it. It has always been like an escape for me,
much the way hard drugs are to some people.
howbloom: it said, "to
be a genius it's not enough to have a theory that
only seven people in the world can understand.
howbloom: "to be a genius you have to have
a theory that only seven people in the world can
understand AND you have to be able to express
it so simply
Chris OConnor: I've never heard that one before
Howard
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: a minor third is like
falling a little bit off a cliff from a major
third, or stepping up from a second.
howbloom: that anyone with
a reasonable degree of intelligence can understand
it"
Naturyl: And that can be a tall order
Chris OConnor: Howard - So true.
howbloom: we all add our
own flavors to things that we read that change
our lives
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: maybe translating is
the only real act of genius. Taking what's there
and amplifying it, adding filters, changing contexts,
etc.
howbloom: I was hooked on
the notion of making science not just palatable
and understandable, but delicious
howbloom: but back to Einstein
howbloom: here was one of the very few people
I could relate to at the age of twelve
Chris OConnor: Carl Sagan shared that approach
howbloom: when I couldn't
relate to other kids my age at all
RickU: Right...thus the idea of having to sell
your ideas
howbloom: and was a social
outcast
#LanDroid: I was thinking the same, Chris.
howbloom: and what was this
role model telling me?
Chris OConnor: Most 12 year olds cannot even spell
Einstein
howbloom: yes, Rick, I never
realized that, he was telling me to sell
Chris OConnor: That he needed to learn how to
sell?
howbloom: but I thought
he was telling me to learn something that at that
age I was incompetent at
howbloom: he was telling me to write
Chris OConnor: to share
howbloom: writing, he seemed
to be telling me, was a necessary part of science
howbloom: yes, selling and sharing
RickU: To share is to sell to at least some of
your audience. The sell is convincing people to
accept your view
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I think it's obligatory
to have one kid in every classroom that identifies
with Einstein.
howbloom: so while I was running the art studio
I was looking for opportunities to write
Chris OConnor: or to consider
your view
RickU: Christianity for whatever reason, has been
very good at selling itself.
howbloom: I felt that the
studio gave me a periscope position
RickU: consider is much better Chris - thanks
howbloom: a position from
which I could see my way into two avenues I had
to pursue
howbloom: to do what Einstein had told me to do
jznet: ok, so learning how to sell ideas is already
well established in capitalism, this is well known.
howbloom: and what I wanted
as well
Chris OConnor: I see no better way than writing
to share your passions, interests, and philosophy
with the world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Christianity offers
forgiveness, a chance to start over, and a peer
group that loves you.
howbloom: those two avenues
were writing and television
RickU: But, Howard - I still have trouble with
your Beagle analogy
howbloom: in those days
I was designing my own clothes
Chris OConnor: I'm allergic to Beagles
Chris OConnor: but alas
howbloom: it was the sixties
Naturyl: Christianity is an offer you can't refuse.
Christianity is a Don Corleone-like proposition
- you can accept eternal life in paradise as a
free gift, and if you don't, you get the opposite.
The selling method is clear
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: :thinks comic books
are the ideal form of information, and underutilized
howbloom: so you could get
away with all kinds of things
howbloom: one day I took my studio's portfolio
out on my normal daily mission
RickU: It's not so much different now Howard.
Just like then...you have to be able to accept
the consequences
howbloom: spend your morning
making appointments with anyone and everyone in
the world who might be able to buy our art
Chris OConnor: Howard - you need to write an autobiography
howbloom: then in the afternoon
visit at least five art directors and show them
our stuff
jznet: yeh I used to love comics and was going
to start an underground comic and was told i would
have one out in a year at one point when i had
not even been serious at it but lost interest
howbloom: one of my five
appointments that afternoon was with the editor
of an underground fashion magazine
howbloom: that I was hoping
would be receptive to our work
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Ever read Uncle Sam
by Alex Ross?
jznet: but love that medium and beyond that, animation
tarav: my favorite comic hero was Lobo
howbloom: i walked into
the office where she and her staff worked
RickU: Keep on It Howard...we're still listening
howbloom: opened my artists'
portfolio
howbloom: started pointing the pages that seemed
relevant
Chris OConnor: Did Tara just speak up? Holy smokes.
tarav: lol
howbloom: enthusing over
art I was genuinely in love with
howbloom: and instead of looking at the art
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Remind me to show you
Uncle Sam, Howard, if I'm ever in Brooklyn.
tarav: i loved that comic, chris
howbloom: the editor looked
at my clothes
howbloom: "Do you have more of these?"
she said
howbloom: sure, I said
Chris OConnor: I'd like to see some of your self-designed
clothing
howbloom: I have a whole
closetful of them
Chris OConnor: Probably a T-back and space helmet.
howbloom: can you write
about them for us? she asked
RickU: Wife's home.. a moment
howbloom: of course I could,
Einstein had told me I had to become a writer
and I'd been working on it since the age of twelve
Chris OConnor: Howard - pictures for your autobiography
- those clothes
howbloom: the clothes are
all gone, chris and there is only one photo
howbloom: and it's not of the stuff I designed
Chris OConnor: hmm
(MichaelangeloGlossolalia left)
howbloom: I didn't realize
that you have to save things
howbloom: at any rate
howbloom: I went home and wrote an article on
the philosophy behind the clothes I designed
howbloom: took it back to the editor and she liked
it
howbloom: you have no idea of how hungry I was
to have my first article published in a magazine
Chris OConnor: That had to be an incredible feeling
howbloom: writing for scientists--putting
together seminar notes and foundation grant proposals
(MichaelangeloGlossolalia joined)
howbloom: and writing for
the boy scouts
howbloom: despite having been kicked out of my
boy scout troop for incompetence at Morse code
howbloom: these were things I'd done while dropping
out of school and in summer vacations
jznet: so you got back at them by rewriting the
code? :]
howbloom: but Einstein had
told me write and I'd never been really published
before
howbloom: the editor liked the article
howbloom: she gave me a few assignments
howbloom: she liked them too
howbloom: she made me a contributing editor to
her magazine
howbloom: so in my spare time
howbloom: from six am to 8 am
howbloom: and from 8pm to 11pm
howbloom: I wrote magazine stories
howbloom: 178 of them
howbloom: it was the Einsteinian imperative
Chris OConnor: you dream big Howard
howbloom: and for some reason
I loved every assignment she gave me
Chris OConnor: And then you take your dream and
make it happen. I love that.
howbloom: they could have
been interpreted as adventures or drudgery
howbloom: if you're going to write prose that
lights other people up, the Einsteinian imperative
howbloom: then an assignment to review all of
the Western gear stores in New York
howbloom: is an adventure
Chris OConnor: Western?
howbloom: a trip to places
you would never have thought of going on your
own
howbloom: yes, saddles, cowboy shirts, cowboy
boots, cowboy belts, etc
Chris OConnor: Ahh ok. I only ask so that I can
edit properly.
howbloom: so there I was
writing my tail off
howbloom: when lesson number two in putting soul
in the machine popped up
howbloom: I was covering an occult pseudoscience
conference one day
howbloom: for yet another magazine that had shanghaied
me into becoming a contributing editor, too
howbloom: natural lifestyles
howbloom: and someone at the conference saw me
scribbling notes
howbloom: and must have realized I was a writer
howbloom: here was his question
Chris OConnor: drum roll please
howbloom: "would you
like to edit a magazine?"
Chris OConnor: Holy shit
howbloom: hey, that would
mean not having to get up at six am to write,
right?
howbloom: my artists were all set up to cruise
on their own
howbloom: or so they thought
(ZachSylvanus joined)
howbloom: I'd gotten them
a gig as art directors for a brand new magazine
howbloom: maybe you've heard of it
howbloom: the national lampoon
#LanDroid: Sweet!
howbloom: there was a big
check rolling in every month and the artists figured
they had it made
Chris OConnor: Of course!
howbloom: so they kicked
me out of the studio
howbloom: why share 25% with a guy who's doing
nothing, right?
Chris OConnor: ahh
Chris OConnor: bastards
Naturyl: jeez
#LanDroid: Sounds like business.
howbloom: they got theirs,
unfortunately
howbloom: they all went back to being unemployed
alcoholics
jznet: sounds like soulless capitalism?
howbloom: who couldn't pay
their rent
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: You were their den mother
howbloom: the soul-less
capitalism was being practiced in this case by
people who felt they were the essence of soul
and the antithesis of capitalism
howbloom: greed is destructive to capitalism
howbloom: greed grinds soul OU
Naturyl: I guess you weren't "doing nothing"
after all, as they discovered when they became
broke alcoholics again
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: enantiodromia (Jung's
word for things becoming their opposites)
howbloom: out of the machine
Naturyl: too late for them though
howbloom: yes, and I still
mourn the best of them
howbloom: but that's another story or maybe it
isn't
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you were giving them
a catalyst... they didn't realize your importance
in their ecosystem
howbloom: but we'll try
to milk its meaning another time
howbloom: so this kid asked if I wanted to edit
a magazine
RickU: Does that mean you'll come back Howard?
howbloom: now follow this
howbloom: I'd been kicked out of the boy scouts,
right?
howbloom: for incompetence at dots and dashes
(DaRk Penguin joined)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: That wasn't YOU who
taught all the Christian kids the second law of
thermodynamics, was it?
jznet: DP, evening'
howbloom: but when I'd gotten
a summer job after my freshman year of college
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: hi dp
howbloom: writing for the
boy scouts of America
DaRk Penguin: hey
howbloom: and they'd assigned
me the job of rewriting their booklets on camouflage
and hunting and stalking
Chris OConnor: Howard - you didn't create the
Boy scout salute did you?
howbloom: the fact that
I couldn't even find my way into the woods much
less find my way out of them didn't matter
howbloom: I had the responsibility of millions
of kids on my shoulders
howbloom: I wanted them to be able to stalk and
track like goblins
howbloom: I wanted them to succeed
howbloom: so I researched my ass off on stalking
and tracking and camouflage
howbloom: I worked at understanding these three
things I couldn't do
howbloom: that the boy scout editor gave me his
biggest job, the most critical one on his platter
howbloom: writing a book called "ten steps
to organize a boy scout troop"
howbloom: the book that would be the guide for
would-be boy scout troop organizers all over North
America
howbloom: and I did it
howbloom: I wrote it
howbloom: by researching ferociously
Naturyl: nice. I used to have "Field book,"
and I loved it
howbloom: so when I was
asked if I wanted to edit a magazine
RickU: But the moral of the story is?
howbloom: there was one
question I didn't think of asking
howbloom: "what is the magazine about?"
howbloom: whatever it was, I figured I'd be able
to research it
#LanDroid: Uh oh.
Naturyl: That's daring
howbloom: so here I was
seeking the gods inside, right?
howbloom: lesson number one had been salesmanship
howbloom: you can't be prophet if you can't persuade
howbloom: you can't be a scientist if you can't
write clearly and deliciously
RickU: prophet?!
Chris OConnor: Profit
howbloom: Einstein and Isaiah
were telling me to sell
howbloom: sorry, Isaiah was another role model
Chris OConnor: You cannot make a profit if you
cannot persuade.
Chris OConnor: /bows
howbloom: a total outcast
who came back with a message
howbloom: if Isaiah hadn't gotten that message
across big time
Naturyl: Prophets get a bad name. Really, anyone
who has a vision is a prophet of sorts. They aren't
all guys in the dessert throwing rocks and screaming
inanely
howbloom: if he hadn't sold
and persuaded and shouted his ass off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the Old Testament prophets
sold fear really well... always with an undertone
of revenge against injustice
howbloom: we'd be deprived
of one of the most vital phrases in our vocabulary
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: prophesy is scenario
planning'
howbloom: one that sets
our sights on one of the most vital aspirations
we have
RickU: Indeed Michael
Naturyl: Bill Gates was a prophet, and it got
him a profit of 50 billion
howbloom: turning swords
into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks
#LanDroid: Yeah, we're getting close to that goal...
tarav: thank you for coming Howard
howbloom: that cliché
does more to focus the ambitions of us humans
than almost any other I can think of
RickU: Not we Howard
tarav: i must go
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Anyone who gives the
tribe its symbols of identity gains the tribe's
loyalty, and its money
tarav: bye all
howbloom: that's selling
RickU: G'night Tara
howbloom: that's boiling
a message down to a bumper sticker motto
Chris OConnor: Night Tara
howbloom: something that
glues itself to your mind
howbloom: but back to the magazine
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: night tare
howbloom: the magazine turned
out to be about a form of group ritual
RickU: No Howard
(tarav left)
howbloom: it's a ritual
that like the macumba and the holy roller rituals
RickU: In that you have simplified it too much.
It could burn in my mind as a negative instead
of a positive
howbloom: used rhythmic
beats to pull the gods to life
RickU: positive rather
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the Survivor producer
talked about creating a sense of ritual.
howbloom: to yank them into
vividness
howbloom: that ritual was something I'd never
had a chance to participate in
howbloom: it was called rock and roll and I didn't
know a darned thing about it
Naturyl: How can "swords to plowshares"
be a negative?
Chris OConnor: Wow I love Nyquil
howbloom: I was an intellectual
snob
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: just try converting
swords into plowshares, you'll be called a traitor
howbloom: I listened to
Beethoven, bartok, Stravinsky, and rachmaninoff
Naturyl: Perhaps, but being called a traitor does
not make one such.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: true
howbloom: can I take a break
for a second and run to the men's room?
Naturyl: of course
howbloom: is this story
proving to be of any value to you?
howbloom: there's more to come
howbloom: brb
Naturyl: It is to me, and so is the draft, which
is great, by the way
RickU: absolutely Howard - pee away
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard's life parallels
in some surprising ways that of Willy Wonka
(#Kostya left)
Naturyl: I really need someone to defend capitalism
to me. I'm pretty much one of these bloodsucking
socialists
Chris OConnor: I want to make sure we don't lose
anyone before he gets to the meat of the book
Naturyl: The only defenses of capitalism I hear
are stupid ones, mostly from conservatives
Chris OConnor: Yes, well then you ought to present
that to Howard Naturyl
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I think capitalism's
potential benefit is in its grassroots structure
(not as easy to defend with huge global corps)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: anything that gives
people more freedom to take initiative will tend
to do better than any centralized bureaucracy,
including a corporatized one.
Naturyl: Howard's ideas on capitalism don't sound
like the same, tired stuff. There is a ring of
uniqueness and potential in them
Chris OConnor: My defense of capitalism is that
it is natural
Naturyl: Well, so is cancer
Chris OConnor: Socialism flies in the face of
natural selection
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard sees capitalism
not as a producer of "stuff" but a process
where a person interacts on a deep level with
the people whose money he wants.
Naturyl: so does modern health care
Chris OConnor: Cancer doesn't create...it destroys.
ZachSylvanus: Chris, so is racism and other forms
of centrism
RickU: I wouldn't separate them that clearly Chris
ZachSylvanus: natural, that is
RickU: Socialism and Capitalism are not that far
removed from one another
Naturyl: Oh, but it does, Chris. All cancer does
is create, and far faster than normal cells.
Chris OConnor: You're all wrong
RickU: Both require honesty
Chris OConnor: Just kidding!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: capitalism is more natural...
not necessarily natural in its current form, but
more natural than some of the alternatives
Chris OConnor: LOL
howbloom: Rick's right
RickU: To truly work
Naturyl: unfortunately it creates something that
kills us
RickU: *grins* Always good when a published author
agrees w/ you.
howbloom: socialism and
capitalism are slightly different versions of
large bureaucratized industrial organization
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: cancer is an interesting
motive... hijacking processes and turning them
into producers of nothing of value that strangle
things of value
howbloom: one just works
a lot better than the other
RickU: Exactly right Howard
howbloom: but let's get
back to the magazine
howbloom: and its lessons
howbloom: lesson number
one,
RickU: And for good reason. Capitalism provides
an incentive that socialism does not
howbloom: from the art studio
and from Einstein
Naturyl: Howard challenges the idea that capitalism
artificially manipulates desires and leads us
to consume an endless array of superfluous products,
which is something I haven't seen any pro-capitalist
challenge effectively
howbloom: was that if you
believe in something you have to sell it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I'm interested in grassroots
entrepreneurial synergy. A net across the world
made of decentralized free people as opposed to
centralized elites and bureaucracies.
RickU: Ok Howard. Back to it
howbloom: if you believe
you are onto something that can help humanity
howbloom: even if it helps only with the sort
of delight
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I think capitalists
CAN hijack the culture forming process. Socialists
do the same.
howbloom: that comes from
the picture of an artist
howbloom: a picture that lights you up inside
howbloom: if you fail to sell it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: brb
howbloom: you betray and
cheat humanity
howbloom: now for the magazine
Naturyl: wow
RickU: I would argue you betray only yourself
and your artist
howbloom: it turned out
to be about rock and roll
RickU: yourself that is
RickU: Carry on.
Chris OConnor: And stones
Chris OConnor: Ones that roll
RickU: They gather no moss
howbloom: yes, you cheat
yourself every minute and every day that you fail
to find and put your passion in your work
howbloom: and you fail humanity
Naturyl: I would agree with Howard, and it's really
something I need to hear, because I really am
not putting enough effort into my book. It may
only sell 10 copies, but I'm cheating those 10
people by goofing off
Chris OConnor: Rick - true
howbloom: your mission is
messianic
jznet: a consistently current state of capitalism
doesn't mean that a potential to reconfigure its
processes though rare to identify and tough to
imagine, possible maybe
howbloom: that's what capitalism
is secretly and silently all about
howbloom: but back to the magazine
howbloom: as I said, it was about this form of
music I didn't know
howbloom: but one of the first things I had to
do when I took the job was go to a concert by
a rapidly-declining blues band called Fleetwood
Mac
howbloom: something remarkable happened at the
concert
howbloom: it was at Carnegie Hall
#LanDroid: Rapidly declining at Carnegie Hall?
howbloom: it would be roughly
seven years before Stevie Nicks would join the
band and give it a new life
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: shhh Lan, it fits the
narrative
howbloom: Carnegie Hall
is a 3,500 seat hall
Chris OConnor: Damn I loved Fleetwood Mac
howbloom: when you are big,
you play Madison square garden, capacity=18,000
howbloom: a concert does strange things to people
even when it's normal, and this concert would
not turn out to be normal
howbloom: it either bores you and makes all the
most depressing half articulated feelings that
you've got go dancing through you for an hour
or two
howbloom: or it let's you drop your feeling of
individual identity and draws you utterly out
of yourself
howbloom: when it draws most of the audience out
of itself
RickU: "The one good thing about Music, is
when it hits you you feel no pain. So hit me with
music."
Chris OConnor: Hit me with your best shot. Fire
away.
howbloom: and into another
form of that bigger than just yourself thing Hitler
went for
RickU: I think that's what you're describing Howard.
THAT feeling
howbloom: and that holy
rollers and macumba ritualism go for
RickU: Not all music does that
howbloom: we used to call
it getting the audience off
howbloom: orgasm for the soul
howbloom: collective orgasm
howbloom: it's a remarkable thing
Chris OConnor: I've had many a musical orgasm
at concerts
howbloom: so the concert
was only half doing what it was supposed to do
howbloom: it was in between the corrosive thoughts
eating you alive and the music and performance
and atmosphere pulling you outside yourself
howbloom: when something strange happened
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: soulgasms are a myth
howbloom: all the electricity
to the stage went of
howbloom: the mikes were off
Chris OConnor: accidentally?
howbloom: the stage lights
were off
Chris OConnor: wow
Naturyl: oh shit
Naturyl: somebody is in hot water
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: and everyone was afraid
of the dark?
Chris OConnor: but they kept playing unplugged
RickU: I don't think so Michael - You've never
had a revelation that rocked you? If you have,
that's a soulgasm.
Chris OConnor: and this is when everything gelled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Rick--sorry, I was thinking
of the g-spot
howbloom: and some sort
of emergency switching system did one of the most
horrible things you can do to the audience of
a concert that's on its way to possibly getting
off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: got confused
howbloom: possibly getting
outside itself
howbloom: it turned on the house lights
howbloom: the lights above the audience
(pctacitus joined)
RickU: interesting
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: and they all teleported
into different bodies!
Naturyl: yep, that will ruin it
howbloom: the lights that
speak of normality
pctacitus: evening all
RickU: Quit being sarcastic and let him tell his
story.
Chris OConnor: Hey Samuel! :)
Naturyl: ever been in a bar at closing time when
the lights come on? You practically run from the
place
RickU: Heya pc
howbloom: the lights that
tell you, quick, it's time to don the mask of
your individual identity again
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: hi pc
Chris OConnor: OMG Michael
howbloom: it's time to look
dignified and composed
Chris OConnor: Exactly Howard...those lights suck
howbloom: it's time to tuck
the gods that were oozing out of you
howbloom: back where they belong again\
Naturyl: The lights kill the whole thing
howbloom: hidden
howbloom: hidden utterly
Chris OConnor: I know exactly what you mean Howard
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: "tuck your deity
in, please"
howbloom: where no one else,
including you
howbloom: can see
DaRk Penguin: the soulgasm blew out the electricity.
wow
howbloom: then Mick Fleetwood
stepped to the very lip of the stage
#LanDroid: LOL@Michael...
Chris OConnor: How was this resolved?
Chris OConnor: I'm dying to know
howbloom: and rallied us
like a general
howbloom: giving spirit to his troops
Chris OConnor: What did he say?
RickU: I only know what you mean in theory. You
tuck yourself back inside and allow yourself to
become presentable for public consumption...not
teaching
pctacitus: do insurance companies cover soulgasms?
Chris OConnor: lol
howbloom: "We're not
going to let a malfunctioning bunch of electrons
stop this music," he said (I paraphrase in
Bloomese)
RickU: Only Christian ones pc
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc--not if it soaks
into the wood
howbloom: We're going to
make this concert happen
Chris OConnor: So they played on....
howbloom: and he said it
in a way that meant he was not just calling on
the band
Chris OConnor: unplugged....with the lights off
Naturyl: everybody in the place sang?
howbloom: he was calling
on all of us to rebel against this accident
howbloom: and he electrified us
pctacitus: I thought it was supposed to be unchristian
to have insurance, protection from acts of god
and all
howbloom: he pulled us together
in the face of this enemy
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: so they dismembered
an audience member, used the intestines to make
very large vibrating strings, and continued on!
That's inspiring.
RickU: The enemy of accident though...is that
inspiring?
howbloom: he pulled us together
in the face of darkness on the stage and light
where it was not supposed to be--on our faces
howbloom: he made us face
him again
howbloom: he made us come together as one
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: accidents are either
with us or against us
howbloom: the band played
on with no amps
howbloom: no mikes
howbloom: no nothing
Chris OConnor: Lets not derail Howard's story
folks
Chris OConnor: please
howbloom: but that was not
what counted
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: sorry Chris
Chris OConnor: No problem
howbloom: he made us, the
audience his army and his family
(ZachSylvanus left)
howbloom: he pulled us out
of ourselves so much more powerfully than a mere
concert ever could
howbloom: we rebelled against accident
howbloom: and made it happen because he urged
us to
howbloom: he catalyzed us
howbloom: he sparked us in some vital way
howbloom: he took the high stress of transition
Naturyl: I'll be interested to hear how this relates
to the lessons of selling
howbloom: from concert to
everyday life
howbloom: a stress we normally don't recognize
howbloom: and he turned it into energy
howbloom: he turned it into transcendence of an
unexpected kind
howbloom: because of the stress of accident the
gods in us came alive
Chris OConnor: events like that bring people together
howbloom: that's when I
realized that somehow, by some strange accident,
I'd found my Galapagos Islands
howbloom: I'd found the spot where the gods live
and thrive
Chris OConnor: Neil Young did the same thing at
one of his concerts when it started raining. It
was an outdoor concert.
Naturyl: Maybe that is the kind of thing we need
in our society, although I don't know how it could
be catalyzed or who could do it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: how long before accidents
will be staged to get that effect? capitalism
can be obsessively self-referencing...
howbloom: I'd found the
place where ritual brings soul flaring and blazing
to life
Naturyl: Well, that's a valid point, MG
RickU: How did you plan to make use of it Howard?
howbloom: Michael it is
and isn't a valid point, I'm gonna digress for
a minute
Naturyl: Then again, one could stage the catalyst,
but not the reaction. Poor catalysts will simply
be ignored, I would think
howbloom: I believe that
pop culture helps a society focus its energies
on creativity in the area of making life better
for each other
howbloom: the area of goods and services
howbloom: rather than focusing its creativity
on something else biology has built us for
howbloom: violence and war
howbloom: but that's a long subject for a later
time in this discussion
howbloom: the first discovery of the rock magazine
odyssey
howbloom: was that I'd found the ritual spot I
was looking for, no matter how accidentally
howbloom: the second lesson was social
howbloom: there was a rock and roll aristocracy
howbloom: a self-appointed rock-crit elite
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the soul-eaters
howbloom: a small group
of folks who had declared themselves the kings
and queens of rock criticism
howbloom: and, yes, they were the soul eaters
howbloom: somehow snobbery snuffs out soul
howbloom: they made it clear to me from the beginning
that I was not a part of them
howbloom: at several points they actually tried
to drive me out of their community
howbloom: I don't like cliques, especially elitist
ones
Naturyl: snobbery excludes those from which the
whole thing originally flows. It is like talking
about plumbing while looking down on plumbers
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: easier to do something
new if you're an outsider and used to being thrown
out than if you're an insider who fears being
thrown out for the first time.
howbloom: probably for a
very selfish reason, they always exclude me
Naturyl: Probably a good sign
howbloom: but the fact is
that they thought their job was to one-up each
other in a status game
howbloom: their audience was each other
Naturyl: I've never seen much real value coming
from self-appointed elites
RickU: It could be because hippy's smell funny...
howbloom: Lisa Robinson,
the self-appointed queen of the group
howbloom: edited a magazine called Hit Parade
RickU: I'm sorry you think that Nat - I'm self-appointed
elite
howbloom: who did she edit
it for?
howbloom: who was her audience?
howbloom: was it the 60,000 kids who bought her
magazine?
howbloom: no, absolutely not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: It's classier to get
delegates to self-appoint you an elite
Naturyl: Rick: in what sense are you self-appointed
elite?
howbloom: they were beneath
her
RickU: I am an intellectual classicist
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: everyone's a self-appointed
elite if they view themselves as the center of
the world's most crucial story
howbloom: it was her job
to do what Marxist officials in the cultural commissariat
used to do
RickU: And I feel that I am intellectually superior
to a great bulk of humanity
howbloom: to "educate"
her audience
howbloom: which meant ignoring every band her
audience liked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the US is a self-appointed
elite, in many ways.
pctacitus: Rick, do you read Latin or Greek?
howbloom: and writing about
bands so arcane and tuneless
Naturyl: Oh, I see. Well, I can't disagree there
is some value in that. The intellect is undeniably
important, and intellectual superiority does qualify
one to a certain extent
RickU: PC - only in a limited fashion. Why?
howbloom: that only a rock
critic could love them
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I don't see people as
being intellectually inferior, but focused for
emotional reasons on things that don't interest
me
howbloom: bands so arcane
and tuneless that by advocating them
pctacitus: A classicist is someone who studies
the Greek and roman classics
howbloom: she could look
hip, cool, and successfully snooty, successfully
"in" to her friends
howbloom: ironically her friends, her fellow members
of the rock crit elite
Chris OConnor: but her friends were not her target
market
Naturyl: But the task of the intellectual (in
my view) is to help everybody else. If everybody
else is intellectually "disabled" in
comparison, should we point and laugh, or should
we try to improve their lot?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: just the Greek and roman,
or all literature of the time?
howbloom: were all Marxists,
meaning they loved the people, right?
howbloom: the fact is they hated the people they
wrote for
Chris OConnor: Sounds like they detested the people
howbloom: they were on a
power trip
howbloom: when I was back in the art studio writing
morning and night
pctacitus: Greek and roman, some Jewish texts,
but that is really to shed light on Greece and
Rome
howbloom: I'd proposed a
story to esquire on drugs and sex among teenagers
howbloom: so I'd spent six months going out on
weekends to a suburban community
howbloom: Meridian Connecticut
Chris OConnor: field research
RickU: Nat - you can't necessarily improve their
lot. People are born with a certain capacity for
thought (IMO)...
howbloom: with a tape recorder
and note pads
howbloom: spending time with kids 15 and 16 years
old
howbloom: and being taken in
howbloom: adopted like a mascot by them
Naturyl: Rick: that's true, but if you present
intellectual things in such a way that average
people can understand them, some insight might
sneak in the back door.
(ecstian joined)
howbloom: shown the secret
things that they were doing behind their parents
back
Chris OConnor: Welcome Eric :)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Elitism is common now
because it's so much easier than it used to be
to lose your social position. We all want to think
we have some special thing that keeps us useful
to the tribe.
ecstian: Hello Chris
RickU: I think only in the way that religion works
Nat
RickU: They take it on Faith
howbloom: one group shunned
me, one group embraced me, and I, like you, am
very, very human
RickU: and to me that's just as bad as Christianity
howbloom: so which group
do you think I championed?
Chris OConnor: Howard - I can see you fitting
in with anybody
Chris OConnor: Howard - the one that shunned you
howbloom: thanks, chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Everything intellectual
can be explained in a way that the average person
can understand it. It's a matter of time before
someone finds the right way to teach something.
Naturyl: Rick: maybe so, but as long as we are
presenting worthwhile things, it is better for
the masses to take it on faith than never to hear
of it.
howbloom: the group that
mattered to me was the kids I was serving
howbloom: the kids who read my magazine
howbloom: I wanted to know their desires, their
needs, and the things that set a flame ablaze
inside of them
howbloom: I wanted to feel them empathically
Chris OConnor: And did you find these things??
RickU: I never said that it shouldn't be presented
- and Howard - a need to inform your audience
- a key to teaching?
howbloom: I wanted to know
how to champion them
Chris OConnor: Empathy is the key to world peace
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I don't like talk of
the "masses" as if they were people
unlike us. That reminds me of the snobbier socialists
and capitalists.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I agree, Chris
RickU: A key Chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: empathy and creative
expression of it.
RickU: Not the
howbloom: to be their advocate
and, puny as I am, the person who fought on their
behalf
Chris OConnor: You're not puny
Naturyl: MG - true, the "masses" is
not an ideal term. I couldn't think of a better
word at that moment
howbloom: I used a zillion
self-invented "market research" techniques
designed to get to the heart of my kids, not to
their pocketbooks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I like Jung's word,
"the collective"
Chris OConnor: Your vision makes you bigger than
life
Chris OConnor: Ahh
howbloom: one technique
I used was an focus group
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: individuals are pretty
smart, collectives can be very paranoid, sluggish
and stupid
pctacitus: chris, try empathizing with bin laden,
see where that gets you
howbloom: guess what? It
proved to be useless
howbloom: worse, in fact
Chris OConnor: Focus groups are controlled
Naturyl: but collectives reflect individual traits,
only magnified
Chris OConnor: They are artificial
howbloom: focus groups give
kids the power
howbloom: that the rock crit elite has
Naturyl: paranoia looks a lot worse when there
is a mob of hundreds outside the door with torches
howbloom: and they use it
to score ego points
Chris OConnor: But focus groups seem to be one
of the best ways to get feedback
howbloom: take 2,000 kids
howbloom: rate them on typicality
howbloom: take the top 20
howbloom: see which ten are most able to articulate
why they like and dislike things
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Chris--instant communication
may change that.... my wife writes to companies
when she wants to tell them something, because
email is so easy.
RickU: Wait. clarify how
RickU: top 20 typical?
howbloom: make them a focus
group, which is one of the things I did
RickU: What does that mean?
Naturyl: In order to set the stage for empathy
to be practiced, certain things will have to be
eliminated. Bin Laden is among them.
howbloom: and they instantly
become atypical
Naturyl: Empathy is not stupidity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: empathy is separate
from security
howbloom: they start advocating
strange and esoteric bands for the same reason rockcrit elitists do
howbloom: to prove their
power
Naturyl: indeed MG
Chris OConnor: Howard - ahhh
howbloom: to score ego points
Chris OConnor: Howard exactly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: empathy doesn't die
because of fear, but because of political correctness.
It's politically incorrect to show empathy for
your enemy
RickU: No. Empathy is simply understanding and
acknowledging someone else's lot
Chris OConnor: they're making a statement
howbloom: they cease to
be guides to the heart of the masses
pctacitus: violence is the predicate for empathy,
is that it Nat?
howbloom: now they, too,
are elites
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you can be afraid of
someone and still empathize with them. It's just
not a popular thing to do.
howbloom: and elites do
not serve people
RickU: Walking a mile in someone else's shoes....
howbloom: elites steal from
them
Chris OConnor: Howard - the only solution seems
to be to watch without them knowing you're watching
howbloom: elites steal soul
RickU: No how
howbloom: that's why Marxism
failed in the USSR and in China
RickU: I think you're prejudiced
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the same focused, magnetic
empathy some Christians feel watching The Passion
can be focused on anyone, including someone you're
supposed to hate.
howbloom: elites steal soul
#LanDroid: Curious - does anyone read rock crit
elitists?
Naturyl: pctacitus, maybe so, sadly. Only because
there are those who would use empathy as a tool
to kill everyone else. Empathize with Bin Laden
and he kills you. Oppose him and he kills you.
No matter what, he kills you.
RickU: Elites don't ALWAYS steal soul
#LanDroid: bin Laden is over here because we are
over there.
howbloom: and large-scale
industrial socialism--Leninist Marxist societies--are
run entirely by elites
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: elites don't so much
steal soul as utilize people's tendency to kiss
up to be at the center.
RickU: Elite's who start to fail almost always
steal though
RickU: It's the basic problem with the capitalist
structure.
howbloom: my job with reinventing
capitalism is to show elites how to connect with
their own passions
howbloom: and how to stop being robots
RickU: Because the elites who succeeded initially
always have the power to steal
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: an elitist creates a
magnetic field that distorts expression, since
everyone's mind is focused on getting to the center
of the anthill.
howbloom: by connecting
with the people they serve, not by connecting
with the peer group they hope to impress
RickU: initially
howbloom: back to the magazine
howbloom: it took me a year of trying all kinds
of things to find how to connect to my audience
RickU: I agree how - you must connect with your
own passion to prevail
howbloom: how to be in tune
with its hungers and its heart
howbloom: which meant it took me a year to find
techniques that let my audience guide me
howbloom: \that let my audience educate me
Chris OConnor: interesting perspective
howbloom: that let my audience
become the, how do a put this?
howbloom: the crucible of my own passions
howbloom: helping me find passions I didn't know
I had
howbloom: then I went to my publisher
howbloom: I laid out a plan
howbloom: a plan for totally changing the magazine
howbloom: a plan for making it fit my audience's
hungers month after month after month
howbloom: and because other people do not measure
success in terms of passion, in terms of soul
howbloom: I implied that he'd make money
howbloom: I told him outright I'd increase his
sales
howbloom: he let me do it
howbloom: I made a new kind of music magazine,
the kind my audience, and audiences and editors
in Germany and France who's music magazines I'd
studied, had taught me how to make
howbloom: our sales did something strange
howbloom: they shot up month by month by month
howbloom: in twelve months we had increased our
circulation 211%
howbloom: why?
Chris OConnor: What were the actual changes you
made? give us something more tangible
howbloom: because I didn't
give a shit about the people in the industry,
the insider elite
Chris OConnor: I can appreciate that, but what
did you actually do to the mag?
howbloom: I wanted to expand
my senses, I wanted to learn from the kids I worked
for, I wanted to champion them in every way
howbloom: prophetic leadership leads to profits
howbloom: ok, what did I do?
jznet: know your audience, deliver
Chris OConnor: Yes, what?
howbloom: my publisher thought
that kids get bored by reading over and over again
about the same bands
howbloom: so he had a policy
howbloom: cover a band once a year and that's
it
Chris OConnor: Hmm
howbloom: but when he first
hired me he told me he wanted his magazine to
read like time magazine
howbloom: so I spent a year analyzing time
Naturyl: your publisher was pretty clueless
howbloom: and I found that
it doesn't work the way he thought
howbloom: it works on a soap opera formula
#LanDroid: That sounds wrong, I'd want to read
about King Crimson every month.
Naturyl: kids will read about Britney Spears every
week for a year and never get tired of it
howbloom: you've got a star,
like the president of the United States
RickU: Nat - only if the back story changes. There
still ahs to be new intrigue
howbloom: you don't run
a story that regurgitates his biography
pctacitus: not a great argument about kids when
you put it that way
howbloom: you write a story
about what he's doing this week
Chris OConnor: So you kept the readers up to speed
on everything to do with the major bands
howbloom: and because real
life is filled with cliff hangers
RickU: indeed
Naturyl: Rick: agreed. There has to be some new
gossip every week, although the formula for generating
such back-story is always the same.
howbloom: the story leaves
you breathless waiting for next week's episode
howbloom: I discovered that my audience had stars
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc, unless you give
kids an intellectual role model they can identify
with, it won't help to think they're shallow
RickU: Why do you think the debates captured us
so?
howbloom: stars none of
the rock magazines were covering
howbloom: it had its equivalent to the President
howbloom: just as you would have wanted to read
about King Crimson every month
howbloom: my audience was dying to read about
Alice Cooper
pctacitus: I was really just hoping for someone
better than Brittany Spears
howbloom: and, no, it didn't
want just his bio
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc--you're welcome to
start a band : )
howbloom: it wanted to know
what was happening to him this month
howbloom: and how the cliff-hanging end left of
howbloom: leaving you waiting for what happened
next
RickU: And I'll bet the same basic journalistic
questions applies - who what when where and why!
howbloom: one of the things
that stamped itself into me not long after Einstein
told me that to be a scientist you had to be a
writer
RickU: If you based it in speculation...YAY National
Enquirer
howbloom: was this tidbit
about writing
howbloom: a good writer can find a good story
in even the most mundane half hour of an ordinary
life
jznet: i like to find talent that is out there
already instead of having it delivered like main
lines of media deliver, the hunt for talented
unrecognized bands to me is cool and rewarding
howbloom: and Alice's life
was not ordinary
RickU: I would concur with that Howard
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: agree with jz
howbloom: he was being hit
by criticism and was being fed large sums of money,
money he never expected in his life
RickU: They can, scientist or not...a good WRITER
can make a half our of normalcy interesting
howbloom: I learned from
my kids and from the spots they opened in my own
heart
howbloom: that I wanted to know and they wanted
to know how Alice had gone from being just an
ordinary kid like you and me to being a star
RickU: But on that note, I have to be up in 6
hours. Thank you Mr. Bloom, and thanks as always
to the booktalk crowd
howbloom: that transition
story was critical
RickU: G'night
howbloom: thanks, Rick
pctacitus: night Rick
howbloom: how could I be
like Alice?
Chris OConnor: Night Rick :)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: night Rick
RickU: nighto
(RickU left)
howbloom: then it wanted
to know every anecdote that had a tinge of sex
and violence, a tinge of the outrageous and the
titillating
howbloom: I asked kids to rate their favorite
paragraphs in the magazine
howbloom: i offered free records to the first
ten kids who responded
howbloom: we had tons of free records sitting
around the office, they come in stacks two feet
high every day
howbloom: hundreds of kids responded
Chris OConnor: awesome
howbloom: I circled the
paragraphs they loved most and put a hash mark
by the paragraph every time a kid voted for it
howbloom: the most popular paragraph in the magazine
that month
howbloom: was in a story about Alice Cooper
howbloom: Alice was in the middle of playing Louie
Louie
howbloom: a song with a kind of mystic meaning
in those days
howbloom: it was an invitation to raunch
howbloom: it made a non-verbal statement to the
crowd that "we are going very risqué"
howbloom: one girl pressed against the stage was
showing what a lot of girls try to show to rock
and rollers
howbloom: her cleavage, her sexuality
howbloom: one of the members of the band
howbloom: in the spirit of Louie Louie
howbloom: dropped a lit cigarette down between
her breasts
howbloom: to me it was a revolting thing
Naturyl: owe
Chris OConnor: but she liked it
howbloom: but it wasn't
the deed, it was the spirit
howbloom: yes, I suspect she's still bragging
about it to this day
howbloom: it was a status symbol
Chris OConnor: I had Jon Bon Jovi sweat on me
once.
howbloom: a sign of massed
attention a sign of recognition
Chris OConnor: /bows
howbloom: but to the kids
it meant stepping outside the bounds and going
dangerous
howbloom: harmless violence
howbloom: harmless sexuality
howbloom: two key ingredients of western pop culture
pctacitus: funny I heard a story at dinner about
someone peeing next to Henry Kissinger
howbloom: two of the ingredients
that I suspect give us our freedoms
howbloom: lesson number two, the lesson from the
rock magazine experience, the lesson for soul
in the machine is this
howbloom: champion your audience
howbloom: love them
howbloom: let them help you find the selves inside
of you you never knew
howbloom: my audience gave me something I'd never
had--a teenage hood
howbloom: help them find the gods inside them
too
howbloom: fight for them in the face of the cliques
and all their snobbery
howbloom: convert the cliques to championing their
audiences too
howbloom: the audience, your customers, can bring
the soul to life in you
howbloom: and if you let them do it
howbloom: if you FIND your passions in your work
howbloom: you'll be rewarded for it
howbloom: so will your company
howbloom: my publisher went from a man of modest
means
howbloom: to a man of wealth
howbloom: all based on my voyage of the beagle
in pop culture
Naturyl: how does one do this when working, for
example, at McDonalds?
howbloom: my Galapagos island
of teenagers
Naturyl: can a fry cook do this? can a ditch digger?
howbloom: McDonalds is a
great example
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: "Would the gods
within you like fries with that?"
howbloom: what to YOU want
out of McDonalds?
Naturyl: tasty greasy food
howbloom: you want delicious
fries, delicious Big Macs, and delicious shakes,
right?
Naturyl: yes indeed
howbloom: so if you're a
fry-cook, make dem fries delicious
howbloom: get curious
howbloom: curious about how hot fat works
howbloom: curious about why potatoes change their
texture when they hit that grease
howbloom: but curious most of all about how to
make them even better to your own taste buds
howbloom: more addictive
howbloom: more delicious than even your bosses
ever knew
howbloom: I'm serious, get passionate
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard, they have regulations
about the fries, you're not allowed to innovate
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: they do everything by
formula
#LanDroid: Hamburger University doesn't answers
those questions?
Naturyl: I think that as MG says, you'd have to
do it behind your boss' back
howbloom: you can think
the improvements and then sell, persuade, just
as I had to sell my publisher on changing his
entire formula
#LanDroid: Hamburger University provides those
restrictions.
Naturyl: that's why I used McD's as an example
howbloom: he made the money
off of it, not me
howbloom: but who got the richness of the experience?
howbloom: who grew in understanding?
howbloom: would I ever trade that experience for
something more mundane?
howbloom: not on your life
pctacitus: John Boyd stole computer time from
his bosses at the air force, his thoughts are
now taught in every self-respecting business school
in the world
howbloom: feel the customer
inside of you when you make those fries
howbloom: more important, when you're the person
at the counter
Chris OConnor: PC - what thoughts were those?
Naturyl: I see your point. I guess what I'm asking,
though, is how can a janitor really get passionate
about mopping floor? How can a ditch digger get
excited about swinging a pick? I'm wondering how
those who work in menial positions can apply this
howbloom: feel the way you
feel when it's you on the other side ordering
fried
howbloom: fries
howbloom: you want a smile
howbloom: you want someone who no matter how brief
the encounter
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: "I am your obsequious
poltergeist, I know your spirit cries for golden,
delicious French fries. That will be six dollars,
please."
pctacitus: OODA loop, maneuver warfare, air land
battle, energy maneuverability theory
howbloom: sees something
special in you
howbloom: and frankly, you'll come back for that
smile
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Imagining Howard as
a motivational fry cook,
pctacitus: he stole computer time to do calculations
and he was able to devote time and effort to thought
because of it
howbloom: and when you come
back for the fifth time, you'll hand a bit of
your identity to that counter-person who smiled
at you
howbloom: you'll share your name
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc, are you advocating
stealing?
howbloom: you'll share a
bit of your story
howbloom: you'll build a bond
Naturyl: But, how one motivate himself to do that
kind of work when they are getting screwed by
the boss, getting paid 6 bucks an hour, and treated
like a dope?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard, I think that's
the fear... that the workers are handing their
identity over with little recognition
Naturyl: what I'm asking is, how does one get
into this frame of mind?
pctacitus: I'm advocating occasionally going behind
your bosses back
howbloom: a lot of this
has to do with perception, Naturyl
jznet: i think menial positions can be meant to
be temporary positions but too many get stuck
in ruts and limit their potential and lack motivations
for diff reasons or stuck in a financial rut
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Naturyl--you get into
beer. Beer becomes the motivation.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc--that's rather liberal
of you
Naturyl: MG - I'm well aware. I know that one
all too well.
howbloom: if you stand there
resenting a list of grievances you will steal
from yourself so badly that it's you who will
be your victimizer
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: people work at McDonalds
for one reason: they can't get anything else and
they need money.
Naturyl: It's true, you do get into beer.
Naturyl: It becomes all you have
pctacitus: well I am a classical liberal in the
19th century European sense of the definition
howbloom: McDonalds does
something wonderful it doesn't get credit for
Naturyl: or at least that's how you begin to see
it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard--not easy to
see the god within your customer if your customer
barely looks at you when ordering...
howbloom: before Ray Crock
howbloom: kids could not get jobs
howbloom: why?
howbloom: to get a job you needed to give your
past job experience
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: McDonalds is convenient,
but unhealthy. I had to force myself to eat at
places other than jack in the box, or I'd end
up with diabetes.
pctacitus: jobs were for adults only
howbloom: you had no past
job experience
howbloom: with no past job experience you couldn't
get a job
howbloom: but you couldn't get a job because you
had no past job experience
Naturyl: So, Howard, are you suggesting that we
should just put aside a mindset of complaining
entirely? Isn't that what our boss wants? If we
don't gripe about him paying us 6 an hour, won't
he cut our pay to 5?
howbloom: catch 22
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: McDonalds is part of
the system that weeds out kids who are bad at
following orders.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I'm not sure what the
rest need... something that inspires them more
than McDonalds perhaps.
howbloom: Naturyl, if I'd
spent my days griping at Circus magazine I'd have
wasted an opportunity of a lifetime
howbloom: I was being paid very little
Naturyl: Yeah, I do see your point
#LanDroid: Yes, but if you read about Ray Croc,
how hard driving he was - a partner retired with
$20 million and Ray was disgusted at that loser...
howbloom: and I did my work
on an old Remington typewriter, a manual one that
sapped my energy
quibbiteer: Just caught up to the present in the
conversation and though this is besides the point
now, I can't imagine a proper place to insert
it later either.. Just thought that the metaphor
way back of cancer and creation and all the thoughts
circling around there were a bit inspiring. So
I roughly tried to respond. So just wanted to
pass on that bit of ephemeral ness before it wafted
away. Getting back to the cancer... Cancer does
create. It also destroys. but it's not creative.
If we want to liken something in the world today
to cancer it would be something like the terrorists
since over all they aren't trying to really form
a body, a rich context for others to be in. But
rather a more uniform one that is spread by fear
or by hijacking our Body's natural processes.
In order to really "win" against the
various cancers it seems you can be two types
of anticancer. You can be something that searches
out and kills the cancers.. And depending on the
stage of cancer and the efficiency of the treatment
(of body process) it could completely eliminate
it or at least keep it under control. But it seems
like the real type of anticancer metaphor is something
that doesn't exist yet. Where you are not only
creating but you are being creative as well. you
are forming new layers and functions. In some
ways an ideal way to escape cancer in away is
before that gestation is complete. It seems like
besides being antiterrorists we have to figure
out ways to nurture them so they settle down,
so they specialize to some other activity. Even
if its politics it is more of dialogue and thus
more creative. I think we have to make sure that
we make it clear we want to hear what "They"
have to say.. all those cancers or viruses out
there and try to win them over to the side of
true Life. Maybe then we'll be healthy enough
"
(quibbiteer left)
(quibbiteer joined)
howbloom: locked in a windowless
room
howbloom: a former storage closet
howbloom: closet
Naturyl: How much griping do you think is healthy
? A little, if it is justified, or none at all?
Or do you feel that it is never justified? I'm
interested in your view on this
howbloom: if I'd spent my
hours using my imagination to manufacture complaints
I could have spent the whole day boiling with
anger
howbloom: and the whole day blind to the wonders
that had been opened to me
howbloom: who would have lost the most from this--me,
who'd lose ten to twelve hours for potential wonder
a day
howbloom: or my boss, whose circulation would
stay at 60,000 and never rise, but who never expected
to see it rise anyway
howbloom: after all, it had never risen before
I'd been there
#LanDroid: Did you state which magazine this was?
howbloom: and it's editor
had been Danny Goldberg, a very bright guy
Chris OConnor: Rolling Stone?
Naturyl: In my view, social progress comes from
griping to some extent. If people didn't bitch
about having too little after retirement, we wouldn't
have Social Security, for example. Do you think
there is an alternative mechanism to produce social
progress?
howbloom: a Marxist who
is into making money
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: quibbit, I think that's
a good point
pctacitus: isn't that hypocritical, or is he trying
to fund a revolution?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: just read that
howbloom: \and who now is
rich but has never put his full heart and soul
into any of the projects he's worked on
howbloom: a person who loves
the people but despises them without knowing it
howbloom: the magazine was circus, do you know
it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard, that would be
just about everyone... everyone despises the masses,
at least enough to make "us vs. them"
statements involving the masses
Naturyl: If we don't express grievances, is there
another way to get redress for problems?
howbloom: yes, make the
business better
Naturyl: yes, I used to read circus as a kid
#LanDroid: Yes, I've seen it...
howbloom: make the business
make more money
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Naturyl, perhaps the
question is, if you were working at McDonalds,
how would you get people to understand what it's
like?
howbloom: then ask for a
part of it
Naturyl: MG - yes, that's part of it. And if I
leave out all the shitty aspects, I'm not really
giving you a true picture of working at McDonalds
Naturyl: not that I work there BTW. :)
howbloom: it doesn't always
work out directly--my publisher told me to tell
him what I wanted in a raise
#LanDroid: That doesn't work for corporate bureaucrats...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: If I worked at McDonalds,
I'd try to make a short movie or something about
it
howbloom: because he was
beginning to roll in money
Naturyl: I did work there in my youth
howbloom: I asked for more
than he wanted to give
Chris OConnor: always aim high
howbloom: so I gave him
six months notice and wrote him a 57 page guide
on how to do the sort of magazine I was credited
for inventing--the heavy metal magazine
howbloom: but because I was spinning straw into
gold in a windowless closet
jznet: i recently saw a very humorous short film
simply on cutting tomatoes with a large machine
howbloom: Seymour Stein,
the president of Sire Records, offered me a job
at gulf & Western starting a pr department
for G&Ws fourteen record companies
jznet: was all in the style, techniques, sounds
effects, timing
howbloom: at the salary
I'd asked for
Chris OConnor: So it worked out in the end
Naturyl: nice
howbloom: and because I
worked my ass off trying to learn new things and
to come to feel more people in my heart through
the work that I was doing every day
howbloom: when abc bought bg&w
howbloom: g&w
howbloom: s
howbloom: music holding a year later
Naturyl: Howard, when you get a chance, I'm interested
in your take on social welfare programs
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I'm not sure "Give
me a raise or I'll take my unparalleled French
fry cooking skills to Wendy's" would be as
compelling.
howbloom: they fired everyone
but me
howbloom: and when I resigned because they'd fired
my staff
howbloom: they flew a VP in who put a blank piece
of paper on my desk
howbloom: and told me to fill in the names of
the staff I wanted
howbloom: to fill in their salaries
howbloom: and to fill in the figure I wanted for
me
Naturyl: MG - I agree. What Howard is saying makes
a lot of sense, but it seems most applicable in
middle class sort of jobs. It seems a lot more
difficult to envision at Taco Bell
howbloom: I gave myself
a modest raise and was now in the middle of a
new adventure
howbloom: abc
howbloom: when you serve others well someone often
pays you for it, especially if you do it in your
job
howbloom: look, I got this weird phone call
howbloom: a year after ABC bought us
howbloom: it was from the lawyer who negotiated
the deal
howbloom: did you see this story in the manuscript?
howbloom: I don't remember whether I left it in
Naturyl: I'm only about 1/3 way through
howbloom: the lawyer said
something preposterous
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: can't remember
jznet: well I've learned the shitty jobs I've
had though at times miserable in the moment gradually
strengthen my work ethic and persistence, overcoming
oppressive elements and to complete tasks i could
be proud of in the end that led to better jobs
eventually
howbloom: "Do you know
why G&W was able to save that shithole of
a music operation to ABC for so much money?"
howbloom: I had no idea
Naturyl: i searched the text for "lawyer"
and couldn't find the story, so maybe you left
it out
howbloom: "Because
of you," he said
howbloom: Because you made dot records a major
player in the country business and helped put
sire records on the map
howbloom: at first I thought he was kidding me
howbloom: but he wasn't
howbloom: the reason the VP flew in from LA to
NY
howbloom: and put that blank piece of paper on
my desk was this
pctacitus: so you should have asked for enough
money to retire after three years instead of a
modest raise
howbloom: the presidents
of sire and of dot had flown to LA
howbloom: they had met with the president of abc
howbloom: and they had told him that they would
only stay with abc if abc made sure that I was
a part of the package
howbloom: alas, it took my years to realize that
fact
howbloom: or i might have asked for a higher raise
howbloom: but look, gang, I'm an intellectual
geek
howbloom: the passions are my obsession, they're
my scientific beat
howbloom: I may have under priced myself in the
market or something of the sort
howbloom: but the fact is that I've come out of
all this rich rich rich in adventure and in understanding
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: what neural mechanisms
are involved in learning to value your worth in
the eyes of others?
howbloom: having been at
the center of things none of my scientific colleagues
will ever perceive
howbloom: gang, I am exhausted after this soliloquy\
howbloom: and Michael, you are asking a good question
and a tough one
howbloom: so let me try t answer it, then I should
probably go, though I really wanted to ask questions
of you
(Interbane joined)
Interbane: heyas, am I late?
Chris OConnor: Interbane - its about time!
Chris OConnor: Only 3 hours late
Interbane: ug, sorry...
Chris OConnor: lol
jznet: almost 3 hrs late :]
Interbane: Was waiting for this too... got too
caught up in business
jznet: transcript for you
howbloom: in global brain
, my second book, it says that we have inner judges
howbloom: that give us our sense of worth second
by second
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: what do you do for people
who have defective inner judges that make it impossible
for them to sell themselves well?
howbloom: and that punish
or reward us biologically
howbloom: depending on their verdict
howbloom: no one has researched where these inner
judges are
howbloom: though the evidence for their existence
is substantial
Naturyl: can the inner judges become deranged?
Naturyl: I think they can be, through emotional
or verbal abuse
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Naturyl, according to
interviews with a lot of serial killers and school
shooters
howbloom: Michael, the evidence
is present in your life and mine and in the life
of everyone in this room
jznet: reassurance seems to be the only social
remedy for the defective inner judges....providing
solid examples to help provide a clearer view
of their value
howbloom: yes, the inner
judges can be deranged when we feel that no one
around us values who we are and what we do
Naturyl: agreed
howbloom: working at McDonalds
and perceiving your audience
jznet: sincere and consistent
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: do people mistake their
inner judges for outer enemies?
howbloom: perceiving the
people who will eat your fries rather than the
bosses who pay you or the peers who tell you you
should despise your work
howbloom: if you know that others loved what you
did today, your inner judges will reward you
jznet: i think advanced stages can lead to that.....i
think i have experienced that in the past, becomes
projections that then deflect
Interbane: punish and reward us biologically.
Such as our balloons being popped, or something
more physical?
Naturyl: MG - I think so. In fact (IMO) it's probably
one of the biggest problems for many people. The
voice coming from within that says "you're
no good" is mistaken for a voice coming from
someone else, or worse yet, from the whole world
howbloom: and working at
McDonalds will give you a greater sense of belonging
and of being needed than sitting home with no
work at all
Naturyl: I know I've struggled with it
howbloom: McDonalds today
is missing the smile factor
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Naturyl--what happens
if millions of people project their inner judges
onto millions of other people?
howbloom: the employees
have lost their gaiety, their hospitality
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard--unless you're
sitting at home reading, maybe.
Naturyl: MG - I don't know. Howard could probably
offer something on that.
howbloom: it's fashionable
to rage when you're working at McDonalds
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: they fixed that, Howard.
They hired retarded folks. They're very happy.
howbloom: it's fashionable
to steal hour after hour of experience from your
self
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Just kidding... people
don't really look at the retarded people
jznet: self generating gaiety or what have you
needs to be fueled by employers as well, mutual
advancement of the business model(s)
howbloom: sitting at home
reading is a necessity for some of us
howbloom: but, god, is it a lonely proposition
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I imagine it would be
hard to get validation as a fast food worker...
a lot of people don't even look at you in the
eye
Naturyl: Yes, I agree, it's fashionable. But working
at McDonalds does suck, in my opinion. I worked
there, so I have some idea. Of course, it's possible
I'm looking at everything wrong.
Interbane: isn't that self esteem being elevated
or de-elevated. Having inner judges as opposed
to variable self esteem doesn't seem parsimonious
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: "An enlightened
man can be happy even in hell." - Buddhist
proverb (not sure if it applies to working at
McDonalds)
Chris OConnor: This has been an interesting chat
howbloom: "a lot of
people don't even look you in the eye"---yes,
that's a sign of rejection and a potent one
Naturyl: I understand what Howard is saying about
how to look at things, but what I am wondering
is how do we get to that place where we *can*
look at things that way. How do we overcome negative
thinking, especially if there is a whole lot of
temptation to think negatively?
howbloom: but would they
look you in the eye if you were one of the high
spots of their day?
howbloom: if you took the initiative and tried
to get to know the regulars
howbloom: and even chat a bit with the irregulars?
Naturyl: What is the process involved in learning
to think this way? What steps would one take,
specifically?
howbloom: well, my book
is designed to help you make a perceptual shift
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: easier to value yourself
if there are enough people valuing you. Even then
it can be hard
howbloom: that's why it's
got 66 chapters
howbloom: 66 lessons in re-perceiving the value
of what we do
howbloom: the lens through which you see colors
everything you view
jznet: placement is relevant here too I think....many
may seem out of place or misplaced by employers
who misread the biz environment as to who is good
for what jobs so the poor performance can relate
to the employers who have the power over that
howbloom: I'm trying to
give you a new lens
howbloom: every job is a learning opportunity
howbloom: picking apples was the most boring job
I've ever don
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: :agrees with jz... few
people have the ability to know where they belong,
most accept whatever roles they're given by others
howbloom: but I can still
see the apples in my head at night
howbloom: when you can't be with the one you love,
love the one your with
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: that almost sounds like
the Hindu caste system... accept where you are
and the gods will reincarnate you a level up
howbloom: if you connect
with your destiny, with your primal passions,
with your passion points, your imprinting points
howbloom: and if you make living your art and
every day your opportunity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: replace "gods"
with the levers that determine people's value
in the system
howbloom: you can find a
piece of what you're looking for in nearly everything
you do
Naturyl: If one is conditioned to think negatively,
what specific steps can one take to get closer
to this way of thinking? Sorry if this question
is too big, I do understand you're tired and I
don't mean to press. I'm just genuinely curious
about this.
howbloom: no, gods are not
levers, in some ways they're the opposite
howbloom: step one is a ghastly thing for an author
to say
howbloom: but please, please read the book--even
if it's only in first draft stage
Naturyl: absolutely
howbloom: lord knows when
it will be finished
howbloom: it's title is not sexy to publishers
Interbane: hehe
ecstian: I must get going everybody. Thank you
Howard for chatting with us this evening. I hope
to see you again.
howbloom: and I've been
sidetracked to write What Osama Wants From You--The
Osama Code
Chris OConnor: Night Eric
Naturyl: It's better than "Universal Dialectic."
That's what I'm going to be confronting publishers
with soon. I can see the eye-rolls already
ecstian: Have a great evening everybody
jznet: thanks
(ecstian left)
Chris OConnor: Howard, thank you for an excellent
evening! As always it has been a pleasure. :)
Naturyl: The Osama Code sounds very interesting
howbloom: I am thinking
of calling reinventing capitalism--Save Your Civilization!!!
Reinventing Capitalism: putting soul in the machine
Interbane: The Osama Code... that's a sexy title
howbloom: thanks, chris
Chris OConnor: I'll post a transcript of this
chat session shortly after editing out misspellings
and all of Michaels comments.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: :likes "Reinventing
Capitalism: Putting Soul In The Machine"
howbloom: thanks all
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: thanks Chris.
Chris OConnor: Just kidding Michael!
Naturyl: Thanks, Howard, it's been nice
Chris OConnor: And Howard…I shall email you
the transcript too. We will all look forward to
your new book.
Interbane: 8(
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: night guys.
Chris OConnor: Thank you all for making this a
smooth chat everyone.
Naturyl: night MG
Interbane: Night all. Thanks for the notice Chris;
too bad I received it too late.
(MichaelangeloGlossolalia left)
Chris OConnor: No problem Interbane. Check the
Home page regularly.
Chris OConnor: Howard - you about had it?
(Interbane left)
Chris OConnor: about 18 people have the text file
for Reinventing Capitalism now
Naturyl: I like that title. I think it will work.
Naturyl: Of course, I'm not published, so that's
just an amateur opinion
Naturyl: it's something I'd pick up and look at
based on the title
howbloom: which title, Naturyl?
Naturyl: "Reinventing Capitalism"
howbloom: I haven't figured
out how to log off yet
howbloom: good
howbloom: Michael likes it, jz likes it and you
and Michael and jz are my readers
howbloom: or my audience
howbloom: so Save Your Civilization doesn't do
it for you?
Naturyl: Not for me. It's not bad, but I like
"Reinventing Capitalism" better.
Chris OConnor: damn
howbloom: the title of the
Osama book that I like the best is What The Nuclear
Knights of Islam Want From You: The Osama Code
Chris OConnor: That one large post that quibbiteer
made is messing up the transcript
howbloom: I got the transcript,
thanks, Chris
Chris OConnor: I am having a problem capturing
everything that happened after that point
Chris OConnor: But we need it too Howard
Chris OConnor: For the site
Chris OConnor: Can you email it to me at [email protected]?
Naturyl: How about "Reinventing Capitalism:
Saving The Soul in the Machine."
howbloom: ok gang, any responses
to What Osama Wants from You: The Osama Code
Naturyl: lol, look at me, giving title suggestion
to Howard Bloom.
howbloom: versus
Naturyl: I must be nuts
howbloom: What the Nuclear
Knights of Islam Want From You: The Osama Code?
Naturyl: no preference here. they both work
jznet: interesting suggestion
jznet: "to be nuts is natural" as my
granny used to say :] joke
howbloom: Naturyl, I've
just noted your variation on the reinventing capitalism
subtitle