Still, it bothers me that so many people are hostile to atheists

Does it bother you that a great many atheists are extremely hostile, aggressive and abusive towards believers?

Squelch wrote:Does it bother you that a great many atheists are extremely hostile, aggressive and abusive towards believers?

Squelch, your comment here reminds me of the universally known fact that everybody always exaggerates everything.

I have never heard of a church being attacked by an angry atheist mob, unless you go back decades to communist Russia or China. Modern atheism is a liberal and rational attitude. Even Richard Dawkins, in his celebrated confrontations with idiots, manages to keep a calm and even tone while expressing justified contempt for utter nonsense.

If some nutcase tells me they are full of holy joy that the world will end in a nuclear war because the Bible tells them so, I think some hostility and derision on my part is justified. As Sam Harris has said, fundamentalist Christianity is an emergency, in that so very many people believe things that are utterly untrue, delusions that moreover are positively dangerous for the future of the world.

We have debated here before whether ridicule is a useful way to educate. I think Monty Python's lampooning of Christianity did more to make people sit up and think about faith than almost anything else in recent times.

Still, you have a point that abuse can be counterproductive. There is no benefit in ranting and jeering if you cannot explain your own views properly. Civil discussion is always best, but discussion with believers often means giving them enough rope to hang themselves.

Modern atheism is a liberal and rational attitude.

I'm afraid that hasn't been my experience at all. In my discussions with atheists I've been threatened with violence more times than I could count, I've had atheists warn that they knew where my family live and that they were watching us, I've been told I should be locked up and I've been accused of race hate crimes, of abusing my own children and of committing and condoning amost every crime imaginable on an almost daily basis.

Both individual atheists and atheist organisations has been quite openly aggressive, abusive and threatening on many, many occasions, yet thus far the count of how many times that behaviour has been openly condemned by atheists stands at 3: most prefer to either pretend it didn't happen or that I'm simply a liar.

Squelch wrote:

Still, it bothers me that so many people are hostile to atheists

Does it bother you that a great many atheists are extremely hostile, aggressive and abusive towards believers?

For some people who are very religious, an honest statement of atheist belief comes across as an attack, since it undermines an important part of their world view. I sincerely believe the following, which I avoid saying in real life for fear of offending and pissing off the devout.

There is no god. Going to church is similar to a primitive tribe performing a rain dance or sacrificing an animal. While such rituals may satisfy social, emotional, and psychological needs, they don't have a direct real-world impact. Religion has led to wars, persecution, and intolerance. Religious groups have, more often than not despite notable exceptions, opposed the moral advances of the last century.

I understand why such statements would come across as "hostile, aggressive and abusive". If religion is a fundamental part of someone's life, they don't want to hear anyone claim that it's actually false and damaging. Similarly, a flag-waving US citizen would be angry about my belief that immoral US foreign policy was the main factor that motivated the 9/11 attacks, while a conservative would be angry by my belief that the absence of universal health care causes vastly more suffering each year than the 9/11 attacks did. In each case, I'm condemning something that's a fundamental part of the emotional identity for a large fraction of the population.

I openly condemn abusive and threatening behavior against all adults, children and animals.

Squelch wrote:Both individual atheists and atheist organisations has been quite openly aggressive, abusive and threatening on many, many occasions, yet thus far the count of how many times that behaviour has been openly condemned by atheists stands at 3:

Now your total stands at 4.

You want to talk about threatening and abusive behavior?

I am a domestic violence advocate. I can't tell you how many times I have encountered women who are afraid to speak out about their battering husbands because they are afraid of how their family and communities will treat them. They are afraid because these women have been told that their marriage is sacred, they made vows to God, and they have been turned away from their own parents and told to go back to their husbands because not doing so will offend God. One beaten and broken woman, a Muslim woman who finally got away from her battering husband was placed in a protection program. This woman knew, if she went back, her husband would kill her, however, her own family threatened to kill her if she did not go back.

This is an example of abusive and threatening behavior, and it happens on a daily basis.

squelch

I'm afraid that hasn't been my experience at all. In my discussions with atheists I've been threatened with violence more times than I could count, I've had atheists warn that they knew where my family live and that they were watching us, I've been told I should be locked up and I've been accused of race hate crimes, of abusing my own children and of committing and condoning amost every crime imaginable on an almost daily basis.

Both individual atheists and atheist organisations has been quite openly aggressive, abusive and threatening on many, many occasions, yet thus far the count of how many times that behaviour has been openly condemned by atheists stands at 3: most prefer to either pretend it didn't happen or that I'm simply a liar.

This post is perplexing in several ways. On other threads here you disavow any religious personal participation.
How and why is it that you are talking to atheists? Are you proselytizing? How are you coming into contact with individual atheists and atheist organizations? Even if such accusations are true how does race enter into your discussions?

The only way in which I can understand such negative responses (?) is if you are doing door to door proselytizing and a home owner is annoyed and responds rudely. But that could happen as easily with a person of faith as well as an atheist.

Regrettably on other threads you appear to be aggressive and condescending. This is on initial contact and without knowing the people whom you are addressing. When you add sight and sound to this it could be very intimidating as well as annoying.

What atheist organizations are you speaking of? Do you consider remarks made on the internet or t.v. as personally directed at you? I can honestly say that in three quarters of a century of life not one of the charges you make against atheists have I ever experienced for any reason. However if I were in the presence of such abhorrent behavior as you are describing on the part of a group of people directed at a mother accompanied by small children I certainly hope I would be one of the atheists that would speak up.

On other threads here you disavow any religious personal participation.

I'm not sure that I did.

How and why is it that you are talking to atheists? Are you proselytizing?

Never have, never will. I stick to two rules: first, I never, ever start a discussion about religion and second, I never discuss it with someone who doesn't want to.

How are you coming into contact with individual atheists and atheist organizations?

Mostly on web forums.

Even if such accusations are true how does race enter into your discussions?

I have two brothers who are mixed race. When the resident atheists on one particular forum found this out, they began accusing me of race hate crimes and of being actively racist. They also directed verbal abuse at my wife, despite the fact that she had never even posted on that forum.

The only way in which I can understand such negative responses (?) is if you are doing door to door proselytizing and a home owner is annoyed and responds rudely.

I've never gone door to door and can't think of any reason why I would.

What atheist organizations are you speaking of?

The worst incident I experienced was with The Brights. I was asked by a friend to investigate allegations of strong anti-religious bigotry within the organisation and when I made my findings known they went completely crazy. Most of the other incidents have been unpleasant but not really dangerous (and not with irony - I got banned from the skeptics forum for asking too many questions). Still, a lot of what I've seen has stuck with me; I vividly remember a young atheist being berated by his peers when recounting the story of a young christian girl who had offered to kneel and pray for his injured leg; they were angry because he had missed the opportunity to kick her in the face.

I can imagine that most of the atheists here, and hopefully everywhere, would struggle to believe or understand that kind of behaviour. That seems obvious to me since you all seem to be balanced and contented people who are pretty satisfied and fulfilled in your chosen beliefs, which is good. But it's worth remembering that not all atheists (or believers of course) are like that; the sort of person who listens to and reads polemics about how religious believers are insane, stupid, dangerous child abusers is not going to be a happy and balanced person as you are. There are a lot of very angry, confused and unhappy atheists out there and a big market catering to them.

Squelch wrote:I have two brothers who are mixed race. When the resident atheists on one particular forum found this out, they began accusing me of race hate crimes and of being actively racist. They also directed verbal abuse at my wife, despite the fact that she had never even posted on that forum.

There are truly ignorant people everywhere with every sort of belief, atheism is no exception since it doesn't tell you anything about what the person does believe. The internet makes things impersonal sometimes. It's as though you're communicating with a 'personality' rather than a person, and most of the empathy is lost. Every time I want to throttle Stahrwe for being dense, I think of him worrying over his son in the war, and I feel for him.

I would prefer to think of myself as a humanist. I've followed a similar set of ethics anyways, but to have it even further developed and well thought out is fun, as though I'm participating in the development of a global morality.

Squelch:

I have two brothers who are mixed race. When the resident atheists on one particular forum found this out, they began accusing me of race hate crimes and of being actively racist.

It would seem from the above that the "resident atheists" are very confused about what constitutes hate crimes. How does having a brother of mixed race mean you are practicing hate crimes? (unless they consider being a member of your family injurious!) Just from that statement alone it seems that it would be best to avoid people who aren't playing with a full deck.

It does seem that you disavowed any religious affiliation but I would have to go back to be able to quote it accurately.

Also doesn't the choice you made for gender identification indicate you are a female and yet you mention a wife. If you are gay then I can understand that choice but otherwise it is just one other thing that makes your position confusing to someone who is trying to follow.

Interbane wrote:
There are truly ignorant people everywhere with every sort of belief, atheism is no exception since it doesn't tell you anything about what the person does believe.

When I've dealt with the rougher end of the spectrum, my impression has always been that they would probably have been bigots of one stripe or another regardless of how they chose to dress it up.