lady of shallot wrote:It would seem from the above that the "resident atheists" are very confused about what constitutes hate crimes. How does having a brother of mixed race mean you are practicing hate crimes?

They accused me of spraying racist grafitti and told anyone who would listen that I was a racist bigot. When I told them that this was extremely offensive and asked them to stop, they redoubled their efforts.

lady of shallot wrote:Also doesn't the choice you made for gender identification indicate you are a female

It's "none specified" I think, I set up my profile in a hurry. I'm male though. And married, with a nine month old daughter.

Re: coming out as an atheist

Squelch wrote:

You may well find that much of the shock is simply at finding out that your views differ to what they thought.

I think the best way to have them listen is to show them by example. If they see that you're just as peaceable, caring and moral as they are, then they'll see that there's value in what you believe, just as there's value in what they believe.
If nothing else, it's worth remembering that really they're atheists too - of the thousands of gods, you only believe in one less than them!

Squelch wrote:

You can agree with a lot of what the bible says and still be an atheist - after all most atheists think we should treat others fairly and care for those in need.[/

Squelch wrote:

Do you think that their reaction may also be related to the fact that so much of recent very visible atheism - Dawkins, Hitchens and so on - has been extremely aggressive, focusing largely on attacking, abusing and ridiculing believers and where possible accusing them of terrible things, even of abusing their own children?

Now you and I both know that the vast majority of atheists are not like that at all. In my own experience, most are perfectly sane, peaceful individuals who are happy and content and who live and let live.

Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

Squelch wrote:Does it bother you that a great many atheists are extremely hostile, aggressive and abusive towards believers?

Squelch wrote:In my discussions with atheists I've been threatened with violence more times than I could count, I've had atheists warn that they knew where my family live and that they were watching us, I've been told I should be locked up and I've been accused of race hate crimes, of abusing my own children and of committing and condoning amost every crime imaginable on an almost daily basis.

Squelch wrote:

I have two brothers who are mixed race. When the resident atheists on one particular forum found this out, they began accusing me of race hate crimes and of being actively racist. They also directed verbal abuse at my wife, despite the fact that she had never even posted on that forum.

Squelch wrote:They accused me of spraying racist grafitti and told anyone who would listen that I was a racist bigot. When I told them that this was extremely offensive and asked them to stop, they redoubled their efforts.

These quotes are posted in the order they were written. I do apologize for taking quotes from two different forums, but if you read through these posts, the inconsistencies are evident.

What bolded lines should I believe?

Now you and I both know that the vast majority of atheists are not like that at all. In my own experience, most are perfectly sane, peaceful individuals who are happy and content and who live and let live.

or this:

In my discussions with atheists I've been threatened with violence more times than I could count, I've had atheists warn that they knew where my family live and that they were watching us, I've been told I should be locked up and I've been accused of race hate crimes, of abusing my own children and of committing and condoning amost every crime imaginable on an almost daily basis.

I choose not to believe you at all.

That's pretty much exactly what I said; most of the atheists I've talked to about this have tried to find some way to avoid the ugly truth, often by simply trying to ignore it, pretty much as you have.

In reality, of course there's no contradiction in what I've said. The vast majority of atheists are indeed pleasant, sane and considerate. But I have been threatened by a small minority of atheists on an enormous number of occasions.

It seems to me you got in a heated argument with some anonymous kids on an internet forum, who are probably making threats and talking about violent fantasies just for kicks. Even though you said most atheists are sane and pleasant, it still sounds like you're making completely unwarranted generalizations about atheists in the real world.

As we sat down to eat my husband was telling me about a very benign topic (bicycling) that he had been watching some clips of on YOUTUBE. He told me about the unnecessarily rude, crude, crass and insulting posts about something someone was doing that harmed no one, was creative, imaginative and positive. Yet others found it a source of annoyance and outrage.

What I would ask you Squelch, is if the forum you were on, displayed this kind of rudeness even once, why would you return to it?

Dexter wrote:It seems to me you got in a heated argument with some anonymous kids on an internet forum, who are probably making threats and talking about violent fantasies just for kicks.

Oh these were very definitely grown adults.

Having said that, I think there's some truth in what you say. I suspect that a lot of what they were saying was, for most at least, just a way of reinforcing group identity by confirming each others' prejudices. There would be quite long threads discussing how to deal with door to door evangelists, which would run to increasingly bold claims as a kind of competition set in - from "I shouted "F*CK OFF and slammed the door" through claims that they'd chucked buckets of water over them, to telling them that they were idiots and their beliefs were false, ending with convoluted tales of inviting them in, locking them in a room and lecturing them about Dawkins.

In reality, I'm absolutely sure that they did what we all do: smile, say "no thank you" and politely close the door!

Still, there are those who do mean it and who have pursued myself and my family far beyond the confines of the forums. That's unpleasant.

Dexter wrote:Even though you said most atheists are sane and pleasant, it still sounds like you're making completely unwarranted generalizations about atheists in the real world.

Forums are the real world. The people here are real, with real feelings, real ideas and real values. They're not imaginary beings who we can abuse and threaten with impunity. The ideas that people put forward here are in almost every case the ones they hold in the real world. People fantasise and exaggerate just as readily in real life as they do here.

lady of shallot wrote:What I would ask you Squelch, is if the forum you were on, displayed this kind of rudeness even once, why would you return to it?

In the case of The Brights, I was there because I was asked to be there. More to the point, I was asked to do that particular research because I'm exceptionally thick-skinned (and headed!) and very capable of looking after myself both on and off line.

In the case of the other forums, I had good friends there are wasn't about to let myself be bullied off the forum by a minority of thugs.

Squelch wrote:The worst incident I experienced was with The Brights. I was asked by a friend to investigate allegations of strong anti-religious bigotry within the organisation and when I made my findings known they went completely crazy.

I'm not trying to start anything, but this just sounds really bizarre. You were asked to "investigate" allegations of religious bigotry in an atheist organization and when you made your "findings" known, they went completely crazy. I have to wonder, how exactly did you make your findings known? Also, you indicate elsewhere that you and your family were pursued beyond the confines of the forums, that these people directed verbal abuse at your wife despite the fact that she had never posted on that forum. How did they get to your wife? Did they know your home address?

I really wonder why your friend wanted you to investigate an atheist forum in the first place. What was his motivation, and what was yours for accepting the mission?

Squelch wrote: Forums are the real world. The people here are real, with real feelings, real ideas and real values. They're not imaginary beings who we can abuse and threaten with impunity. The ideas that people put forward here are in almost every case the ones they hold in the real world. People fantasise and exaggerate just as readily in real life as they do here.

Yes, it's the real world but anonymous bluster on the internet does not warrant your statement:

Squelch wrote:Does it bother you that a great many atheists are extremely hostile, aggressive and abusive towards believers?

You could pick just about any group, religion, hobby, etc. and find commentary on the web that is as unpleasant as you care to find.

geo wrote:I'm not trying to start anything, but this just sounds really bizarre. You were asked to "investigate" allegations of religious bigotry in an atheist organization and when you made your "findings" known, they went completely crazy. I have to wonder, how exactly did you make your findings known?

I really wonder why your friend wanted you to investigate an atheist forum in the first place. What was his motivation, and what was yours for accepting the mission?

Ah, I should have explained: my friend was (is) a freelance journalist. My findings, along with my friends' own research formed the core of an article which was published quite widely. When the period allotted was up, I told them what was going on and posted my preliminary findings, which I thought was only fair. They were extremely angry; the general feeling seemed to be that I had in some way deceived them by not giving them the opportunity to moderate their behaviour.

As to their ability to pursue me, one of the reasons I was asked to do the research is because I've been a web developer for a long time and I know a few tricks when it comes to staying anonymous. They were able to email me and to find forums where I'd used the same IP address, but I'd made sure the trail would peter out quite quickly - still, they were exceptionally persistent.

The more recent threats were from a forum where a number of people knew who I am in the real world. There was a genuine risk there, so the mods acted accordingly and banned the offending user under threat of police action.