johnson1010 wrote:

There is an impression in our society that empiricism and objectivity trump belief.

Empirical, objective observations that says the result of some event will be "A", are far and away superior to an unfounded belief that the result will be "B".

You reject this?

Perhaps. The power of the mind is amazing. Look at the placebo effect, many times the idea of a powerful medicine is enough to persuade a patient that they have been helped though all they are taking is a sugar pill. Empiricism is not to blame, nor is objectivity, it is belief.

Fear can also overcome objectivity and and empiricism.
I'm feeling a bit blue tonight. I need to check to see if Mars is visible.

johnson1010 wrote:

There is an impression in our society that empiricism and objectivity trump belief.

Empirical, objective observations that says the result of some event will be "A", are far and away superior to an unfounded belief that the result will be "B".

You reject this?

Our focus on critical thinking in these forums has made me become more interested in the type of thought that isn't, strictly speaking, critical thinking, that isn't a matter of propositions and evidence but rather of discernment and judging in a holistic sense. Malcolm Gladwell's Blink is about just that, but as I recall I had to return it to the library before I ever finished it. Gladwell's subject is "thinking without thinking." Where this might intersect with belief is that we might be using our rationality to discern a reality, yet not have empirical evidence to support the belief. But the case might be that empirical evidence isn't in this case appropriate; rather, it's a sense of the whole, achievement of perspective, judging relative weights, that are most important. Any of this could move thought toward the heading of belief, including beliefs we call religious. Critical thinking is a part of reason, but not equivalent to it. We should find a book, maybe Gladwell's, that talks about this wider subject.

Belief, then, doesn't always violate reason. I think that in some cases, such as creationism, it clearly does. Believers might be okay with this, though, since the choice of faith over reason can be sanctioned by religion. As a weak libertarian, I usually just chalk this up to their right of personal choice and try not to be overly bothered by it.

DWill wrote: Gladwell's subject is "thinking without thinking." Where this might intersect with belief is that we might be using our rationality to discern a reality, yet not have empirical evidence to support the belief. But the case might be that empirical evidence isn't in this case appropriate; rather, it's a sense of the whole, achievement of perspective, judging relative weights, that are most important. Any of this could move thought toward the heading of belief, including beliefs we call religious. Critical thinking is a part of reason, but not equivalent to it. We should find a book, maybe Gladwell's, that talks about this wider subject.

Yes, I think you observation is right on. I would welcome a book on this subject. The simple fact is, we make decisions everyday based on "beliefs" that came to us through sometimes flawed perceptions of reality.

I am reluctant to enter this fray, but on the subject of "Blink" (and not on God or the Space Program), I read the book sometime last year as well as Gladwell's other books, all of which I thoroughly enjoyed. My memory is poor but from what I recall, Blink was about making instantaneous judgments at times under duress. Was this not the book that started out with smoke jumpers being trapped on a hillside, and the one that survived did so because he set the immediate area around him on fire thus depriving the wall of flame fuel? One caution about Gladwell, he is a very talented writer that can persuade you with the quality of his writing. Sometimes I felt somewhat manipulated by his arguments that were just a bit too well oiled with lovely persuasive writing.

In any event Saffron, in another thread, mentioned a book and provided a link to a video of talk given by the author to Google employees which parallels the discussion above. I got the book on my wish list and watched the video. The video is 55 minutes long and is a bit slow to start but once it got going I enjoyed it.

The book "On Being Certain" By Robert Burton:

http://www.amazon.com/Being-Certain-Bel ... =8-1-spell

The Google Talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL12c4d0ro4


EDIT: I borrowed Blink from a friend and don't have a copy of it, but I am wrong about the smoke jumpers. Blink starts off with the possibly fake statue. The smoke jumpers was in an article in the New Yorker July 28, 2008. "The Eureka Moment" by Jonah Lehrer. It is available on the New Yorker archives but requires a magazine subscription to access.

http://archives.newyorker.com/?i=2008-07-28#folio=040

Any of this could move thought toward the heading of belief, including beliefs we call religious. Critical thinking is a part of reason, but not equivalent to it. We should find a book, maybe Gladwell's, that talks about this wider subject.

The thin-slicing mode of thinking that Blink covers doesn't truly discuss beliefs arrived at by lack of thought. We must think to have beliefs, even if it's to accept an idea on faith. The snappy method of thin-slicing is interesting because it is almost as accurate in arriving at the right conclusions, but only takes a fraction of the time. Critical thinking is more accurate, but that's not always necessarily the case. There are times when too much thinking can lead to analysis paralysis. Thin-slicing is still susceptible to biases however, meaning that being aware of biases and prejudices is still a critical part of coming to the right conclusions. Thin-slicing also requires evidence, but our recognition of the evidence may only be on an unconscious level.

I don't think Gladwell has a book on Critical Thinking, but I might have missed it. I've read his other books, they're short but sweet. The book by Robert Burton is a good one. If we can find another I'm game.

Interbane wrote: The book by Robert Burton is a good one. If we can find another I'm game.

I am new here, and a little lost with the above comment, "another" what? Book? Member? Member with a sufficient number of post to do what ever?

I am reluctant to enter this fray,

Nonsense, Veneer!

Have at it!

We love to hear what others think.

To amend a signature that I have seen:

Stupidity is a blessing.

Ignorance is bliss.

There are certain threads here in which my good friend Bertrand Russell below whispers in my ear: Veneer, you have the gift of stupidity and ignorance. Embrace both, and keep counsel to yourself. I don't have the endurance to read these threads let alone post.

But we want your opinions! I've seen your posts in other threads, as well as your completely relevant posts here, and I would definitely like to continue to see what you have to say. New voices are more than welcome, they are encouraged. Please, speak up!

I am new here, and a little lost with the above comment, "another" what? Book? Member? Member with a sufficient number of post to do what ever?

Huh? More books, books are good mmkay? What's worse than stupidity and ignorance is willful incorrigibility. Rather than being afraid of being wrong, try to post so much that you find a lot of areas in which you're wrong. That's the best way to express intellectual humility and a passion for learning.

You know, I keep thinking every time I see a mentally handicapped person who's smiling nonstop, that I wish I were them. To be eternally happy...