stahrwe wrote:Suppose you did die today, and found yourself standing before God and He asked you, "Why should I let you into My Heaven;" what would you say?

The topic of this thread is: how did you stop believing? What's your story? Presumably Stahrwe doesn't have a story. As usual he's just trolling around.

geo wrote:

stahrwe wrote:Suppose you did die today, and found yourself standing before God and He asked you, "Why should I let you into My Heaven;" what would you say?

The question demonstrates a puerile level of intellect.

The topic of this thread is: how did you stop believing? What's your story? Presumably Stahrwe doesn't have a story. As usual he's just trolling around.

If you have been following the discussion, President Camacho posted that he had a visit from a 'church' group quoting a Bible verse to him which he referenced but could not remember. I tried to narrow it down for him resulting in the following exchange:

President Camacho wrote:
I would have remembered key words like dung. I don't think this is the one. It's similar but the one he read me wasn't as dark. To tell you the truth I'm not sure what they were. I just assumed they were christian.

To which I replied:
Most Christian denominations are too lazy or too chicken to go door to door these days. The Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses do it because their salvation is tied directly to it. They really don't give a hoot about you. In fact, you would be in competition with the JW's if you convert because there are a limited number of spots.

Evangelicals will come around but you can tell them because it is very unlikely that they will carry a Bible and they will not tell you about Hell, instead they will ask you two quesitons:

If you died today do know for sure that you would go to Heaven?

Suppose you did die today, and found yourself standing before God and He asked you, "Why should I let you into My Heaven;" what would you say?

Resuming comments to Geo:

I actually did go through a time when I stopped believing. We bounced from church to church until I was in high school when I became bored with the whole 'organized religion' thing. Didn't see the point. Not relevant. All hypocrits. I gave a girl in one of my classes horrible grief about the virgin birth.

Robert Tulip wrote:

stahrwe wrote:They are just questions. Why are you so upset?

Hi Stahrwe. For evangelicals to ask people "If you died today do you know for sure that you would go to Heaven?" is a question in the same class as "When did you stop beating your wife?" It is a method refined by Karl Rove in the unethical electioneering tactic of push-polling. I admit I do get upset by push-polling, in this case people promoting the false premise that heaven exists.

Give me a break. How is it the same at all. Would you prefer an additional introductory questiona: 1) Do you believe in Heaven? All the current question #1 does is assume that and is not the same as asking "When did you stop beating your wife?" As for push polling, that is so last millenium. When I get a phone call asking me to take a survey I tell them I only will if they tell me who they are polling for. They won't do that so I never participate. Besides, aren't you in Australia? Whend did Karl Rove ever subject you to push polling? You can't even vote in the US.

Robert Tulip wrote:

Wiki: "Perhaps the most famous use of push polls is in the 2000 United States Republican Party primaries, when it was alleged that George W. Bush's campaign used push polling to torpedo the campaign of Senator John McCain. Voters in South Carolina reportedly were asked "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?" The poll's allegation had no substance, but was heard by thousands of primary voters."

See also loaded question

what does this have to do with the topic?

Robert Tulip wrote:

stahrwe wrote:

Interbane wrote:If you died today do know for sure that you would go to Heaven?

Yes, I paid my church a deposit a few years back for entry into heaven. They handed around a dish for it.

Suppose you did die today, and found yourself standing before God and He asked you, "Why should I let you into My Heaven;" what would you say?

Fine, send me to hell you prick, you already know any answer I'd give.

Interesting answers.

The moral blackmail inherent in this type of Pascal's Wager religious bullying is appalling. Heaven does not exist except as a vision for the transformation of the earth, as indicated by Jesus in his instructions to pray 'your will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. The whole idea of 'going to heaven' is obsolete, wrong, primitive and immoral.

Could not have said it better Robert.

Star Burst wrote:

stahrwe wrote:If you died today do know for sure that you would go to Heaven?

Suppose you did die today, and found yourself standing before God and He asked you, "Why should I let you into My Heaven;" what would you say?

robert tulip wrote:The moral blackmail inherent in this type of Pascal's Wager religious bullying is appalling. Heaven does not exist except as a vision for the transformation of the earth, as indicated by Jesus in his instructions to pray 'your will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. The whole idea of 'going to heaven' is obsolete, wrong, primitive and immoral.

Could not have said it better Robert.

Immoral? How are the questions immoral?

Let me phrase them this way:

Good afternoon sir, may I speak with you for a moment about something important?

My, it is a beautifly day is it not? Yes, a beautiful day God has made for us.

That remindes me, sir, do you believe in God?

I see.
Well, if I may have just another minute of your time, suppose God does exist and when people die they either go to Heaven or Hell. Now, suppose you died this instant do you know for certain that you would go to Heaven?

Very interesting.

Thank you for speaking with me. If I could just ask one more question, "Suppose you found youself before God and He asked you why He should let you into Heaven, what would you say?

How about it Robert? Star Burst?

Well, I am neither Robert nor Star Burst, and I kind of resent this topic getting slowly twisted into yet ANOTHER tired debate on the existence/nonexistence of God, etc. The difference in your questions and the previous ones is pretty plain. The first ones assume and presuppose certain stipulations. The only way to interact with them politely pretty much requires you to go along with the postulation and thus get drawn into a conversation you may or may not want to have. The second set you have the choice to either go along with the hypothetical, or voice your opposition to the parts of the question you find invalid.

Do you believe in God? ranks tight up there with "How much do you weigh? How much do you make? and How old are you? in terms of questions we do not ask strangers in polite society.

stahrwe wrote:Suppose you found youself before God and He asked you why He should let you into Heaven, what would you say?

Stahrwe, this question assumes concepts of God and heaven that modern science has found to be mythological and obsolete. The idea that I as a personal soul will exist for eternity stands in direct conflict with the scientific law of entropy. When a person dies the energy that holds their soul together loses the complex order provided by life. Eternal life, and the afterlife, are metaphors for how we hand on our spiritual learning to future generations of the living. As Jesus said at Mark 12:27, Matthew 22:32 and Luke 20:38, God is a god of the living and not of the dead.

The concept that God may 'let you into heaven' only makes sense in a pre-modern flat earth cosmology, with earth at the centre, God in heaven above and the devil in hell below. Such a cosmology makes sense for a peasant community whose valley seems to be the whole universe, but not for a modern planetary global scientific understanding.

We should now read the Biblical texts against modern understanding to glean how they contain metaphors for the truth. As I said before, this means seeing heaven in line with the Lord's Prayer as a vision for the perfection of the earth, not as a place of escape. The escapist concept of heaven that supports the rapture ideology is deeply immoral. It assumes that assent to doctrinal formula can allow an individual to live forever in an imaginary reality, taking a selfish fantasy for the truth, ignoring how this fantasy conflicts with scientific observation, and ignoring how scientific evidence provides the real criteria for how we can make our world a better place.

froglipz wrote:Well, I am neither Robert nor Star Burst, and I kind of resent this topic getting slowly twisted into yet ANOTHER tired debate on the existence/nonexistence of God, etc. The difference in your questions and the previous ones is pretty plain. The first ones assume and presuppose certain stipulations. The only way to interact with them politely pretty much requires you to go along with the postulation and thus get drawn into a conversation you may or may not want to have. The second set you have the choice to either go along with the hypothetical, or voice your opposition to the parts of the question you find invalid.

Do you believe in God? ranks tight up there with "How much do you weigh? How much do you make? and How old are you? in terms of questions we do not ask strangers in polite society.

Amazing.
How many books have been discussed on BT.org that promote the idea that there is no God?

We are discussing one right now; The Evolution of God.

Barely a week passes without someone starting a new "discussion" about Jesus, or God, or the Bible with a negative slant. This one is "How did you stop believing" there's another one: "The inevitable".

Tell me, how can you have a discussion about the evolution of God without, at some point establishing if you believe in God. I'm really curious about that.

I need Interbane's rubber chin.

This topic is titled right up front "How did you stop believing?" I came in to discuss HOW, not whether, or why not, or if, THIS topic presupposes the lack of belief right up front. If I wanted to debate the other questions there are a multitude of topics for just that purpose. I do not go there because I don't care to participate in that debate. Please feel free to discuss all of that in the myriad of other places people are discussing those topics. I feel free, for my part, to stay out of them.

geo wrote:The topic of this thread is: how did you stop believing? What's your story? Presumably Stahrwe doesn't have a story. As usual he's just trolling around.

Sorry that I responded to the off-topic comments. I suspect that Stahrwe finds it offensive that people have reasons not to believe, and sees such discussion as a golden opportunity to proselytise and to divert the discussion.