You can call me Abigail, or shorten my "long name" to evendeath -that sounds emo.
The reason I haven't been in for a while is because my computer had a cold and had to go to the computer doctor. But my baby's back now and everything is okay.
That's an interesting poem, Penelope, but I'm not sure what it means. Is it advocating the "just give me Jesus" view of Christianity? That's a dangerous way to look at things, because although the entire Bible is focused around Jesus, if we took out everything but just the gospels, well, you do the math. That's four books out of sixty-six. That leaves a lot out of the Christian walk.
I see things as black and white because I believe in logic, and logic tells us that if there is a good then there must be an evil. This story helped me a lot when I was struggling with the idea that there were no grey areas:

Two students were always arguing in class. They disagreed on everything. One day the teacher grew fed up with it and brought the two children and brought them up to the front of the classroom. She stood one child on the right side of her desk, and the other on the left side. Then she placed a square object in the center of the desk.
"What color is this object?" The teacher asked.
"White." "Black." The two students said at the same time. They stared at each other in disbelief. "Are you crazy?" the one on the right side said. "It's white!"
"No it isn't. Anyone who isn't blind could see it's black."
Before this disagreement could escalate into the usual name-calling shouting match, the teacher had the children come to the front of the desk. Once there, they could see that the object was black on one side and white on the other.
"So you see, children, you were both right." The teacher said.
Another student who had been watching quietly from his desk raised his hand and said, "Excuse me, ma'am, but they were actually both wrong. One said it was black and the other said it was white. The cube is actually black-and-white."

So the moral of this little illustration is that there is one truth. It wasn't that the children were both telling the truth, although they thought they were. How could they both be telling the truth when they were saying exactly opposite things?

I know it is hard for us humans to see things as black and white. Most things do seem gray. I like how you used the word "obscure."
But to God these things are not obscure. He is in front of the desk. He can see both sides of the cube, and he knows the truth. The one truth. He also made the cube, so He has control of what the cube looks like. That's another reason to believe in absolutes. without absolutes, God seems less magnificent than he really is.
Maybe the "just give me Jesus" thing draws more people in with its message of an easy ticket into heaven, but real Christianity is a love and awe of God, and that is accomplished when we realize how inferior we are to him, how low and mean and disgusting compared to Him, and yet God loves us anyway. We are black and God is white.

But then there's the upside to this discouraging thought. God wants to give us a chance to be like Him! If we take Jesus as more than just a bridge to walk across to get to Heaven, and instead live every day reading about him, getting to know him, and trying to be like him, we can truly become his friends and even brothers and sisters! That's the magic of Christianity. It's hard, and you have to give up a lot of illusions, like the fond hope that you are the center of the universe and the belief that you are "basically a good person." I wish I could believe these things, so I lie to myself a lot and tell myself that I'm doing better than other people and that it's obscure whether I'm actually doing wrong, because aren't my motives good? But the absolute truth is that I am nowhere near pleasing to God, and only Jesus blood can wash away the past and future sins I commit, and only the Spirit can truly make me do good.
(That's where Calvinists disagree with most other denominations, I think. If I do anything good, it was nothing I did of my own free will, but God ordained it from the first and it could never have happened any other way. I believe this also because any other view makes God a weak bystander, and I believe the Bible when it says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, which means that things he wrote into the story of the universe don't change depending on what decisions we make. It's only logical.)

Whew! I did it again. I'm really sorry I get so long-winded on these subjects. I hope I've given you some food for thought, though.
Wow, I was so into it I didn't even add any smilies to the text, and if you've noticed I love love love smilies

Abegail - thank you for taking the trouble to send such a long post. I appreciate your effort and have read it carefully.

Well, even St. Paul said, ' We see through a glass darkly' and when we see Him, face to face - we will really 'see'.

The trouble with me, is - although I became a committed Christian at the age of twelve - I never could believe that Balaam's Ass spoke to him!!

I always had trouble with taking it all literally - and was told to eat the meat and leave the bones on the side of my plate. I have ended up with a very big pile of bones - but at least I didn't eat the plate as well!!

I do pray, all the time......not very reverently... it has to be said. And I often wonder what people do who can't pray, in the current world situation. I do consider what Jesus would have said, done, or more often what he would have thought about various conflicts in our lives and I try to emulate.

However, I should tell you, that if I were on trial for being a Christian, there would not be enough evidence to convict me.

Jesus himself gave us few rules - only two really - to love God - which I do although sometimes I am so angry that I can't speak to Him. Even then, I just sit in his presence and 'sulk'. But I do go to him.

And to love our neighbours as much as we love ourselves. I am thinking about Charlie Brown saying - I love mankind, it's people I can't stand.

No - to love our neighbour - that is the hard one.

Hi Abigail,

You said:

(That's where Calvinists disagree with most other denominations, I think. If I do anything good, it was nothing I did of my own free will, but God ordained it from the first and it could never have happened any other way. I believe this also because any other view makes God a weak bystander, and I believe the Bible when it says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, which means that things he wrote into the story of the universe don't change depending on what decisions we make. It's only logical.)

I did some reading about Calvinism quite a few years ago. My recollection is that Calvanists do not believe in free will - everything that you do and that happens to you is pre-ordained. Is that correct?

I have a very hard time wrapping my head around this concept. If I am in a car accident, because I was speeding, there was actually nothing I could have done about it, because it was decided by someone else, that I would speed, and I would have an accident? Does this belief mean that there is no personal responisibilty for actions - you cannot fight what God has decided for you?

(These are genuine questions, because I am curious. I am not attacking your beliefs. If you are uncomfortable with this line of questioning, let me know, and I'll drop it.)

Jan.

Surely, we must have free-will to 'choose' to do what is right, rather than be automatons or zombies just being moved around like playthings.

Abigail is right though, the Bible does often give the impression that this is so - It says it was fortold that Judas would betray Jesus. Well, I say, poor Judas, if he had no choice. But I don't believe that about our God, no matter where it says different or how many people shout it in my ear, I am sure God wants us to choose and struggle to do what is right, not be tortured and forced into it.

I think here of my own children, I don't want them to come and see me and bring me flowers and do as I say because they are afraid they will get a smack if they don't. I want them to come and see me and do what is kind and right, because they love me.

I am extremely interested in this discussion. Yet, I'm rather sad I didn't join it earlier.

Eventho I am a 'christian'. It is not a label I wish to be placed under today in our society. the christian people is connected with so many horrible things Yet, somehow I can cannot fall away from the concept of jesus and all of his glory.

Abigail-

We are the same age but I find you leaps and bounds in front of me, maybe that's what a get for going to college In my opinion college is completely overrated. I don't believe it is necessary to go to college (eventho our society seems to make it that way), it's as if...if you don't go to college you aren't smart and you may fall behind the rest of the world. Well how do they (who are they anyways) know where we gain our intellectual knowledge? Yes, I do enjoy learning and what I want to be when I grow up would be rather hard to learn out in the american society. So I guess college is okay sometimes...

You spoke earlier of christians being a 'peculiar people'. There is this book called "a peculiar people" that was assigned in one of our religion classes, it has many concepts about the church, are you drawing a conncection to that book?

You also speak a great deal about christianity. I admire your love for God, but I have to admit sometimes I don't like God. I don't like the idea of predestination, I don't like the idea of things being out of my control and I don't like the idea of disappointing someone who is so divine. I have been struggling with these ideas for a while.

I find many books on the modern christianity, the new age of christianity and I agree with most of these concepts. It's just the concepts of the old church I don't agree with. Rob Bell, the author that i'm reading, compares the ideas of the 'old church' to a brick wall, he states "The problem with brckianity is that walls inevitably keep people out. Often it appears as though you have to agree with all of the bricks exactly as they are or you can't join". Honestly, I'm repulsed by this idea.

But I have seen some light in christianity (coming slowly through a peep-hole), thanks to my future husband, who I did meet in college (college does have some perks I guess ) it's the concept of the emergent church (which I think you would enjoy based on what you believe). In a nut shell, a group of believers or followers get together and they discuss. They pick out a topic for the week and they join and talk about it. There is not just one person speaking, but everyone exchanging ideas, being tolerant or other's beliefs. The primary focus of this group is not to go out in search and bang on people's doors and tell them to come but rather focus on loving the people around them, such as God has loved and work towards a greater understanding of God and his or her purpose. As an individual, being rejected from my church for no reason, this idea appeals to me.

When I worked at the Salvation Army some years ago. I came to the conclusion that it was no use using 'jargon' to introduce people to the gospel. I felt it should be 'demonstrated', not talked. It was demonstrated there by a wonderful, warm group.

I had to leave because I knew I had stopped believing the basic dogma of that denomination. But they still love me and I them.

Penelope-

You have discovered something, great and significant that most "christians" have not discovered yet. The bible preaching means nothing if you live out the everyday as a heathen.

I just wish wish people would stop preaching through words and perhaps maybe with their lives....

"For the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." - 1 Samuel 16:7

I think that my Calvinist beliefs, though they seem strange and hard to grasp, help me to love my neighbor and not be intolerant as Christians are stereotyped to be. Yes, we believe that there is only one path to God --well, God says there is, and He would know-- and we believe that man was born with sin and cannot rise above it ("For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23) That makes people angry because they want to believe that they have control over their lives and they can "evolve" themselves into something better. Of course, what "better" means is anyone's guess, without a holy, perfect being to set the standard.

But Christianity is different. It leaves all the responsibility on God, and frankly, He's the only one who can handle it. He is the perfect one, not us, and the hard truth is perfection is the necessary component for getting into Heaven. That's why Jesus had to die to pay for our sins. He did the hard part, all we have to do is love, and that's easy. But love in Biblical terms is a verb, not a feeling. A synonym for God's style of love is "obedience," and that's where it gets hard to be a true Christian.

I'm not saying that if you do things the wrong way you're not a Christian. I'm saying that God looks at the heart, and I can't. So I don't know if someone is really a Christian or is just talking the talk and not walking the walk. It's not my place to know. I can only obey God in my own life and hope he has predestined me to be one of His children.

In a strange loop of logic which we humans find hard to understand, I think the ones who are obedient are obedient because they are elected, not elected because they are obedient. I've always thought of it like we're all characters in a book, and God is the Author. The Author makes up characters and some of them are good and some of them are bad. The good ones do good things and live happily ever after. The bad ones get their come-uppance. The plot goes where the Author wants it to go, and the characters, though they sometimes seem to willfully want to do their own thing (if you've ever tried to write a story, you'll know what I mean) in the end serve the story the Writer has planned.

That helps me think about predestination. It's weird, I know, but it makes sense and it puts all the glory firmly on God's scorecard, which is the important thing.
And remember this:
"For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are the called according to His purpose.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also gloriefied.
"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" - Romans 8:28-31

Actually, I could go on and on. That whole chapter is just chock full of amazing stuff.

Thanks for talking with me about this stuff. You guys are great! I hope I'm making sense.

Thank you for that Abegail.

If you are taking the Bible as the only source of truth, then yes, it does (in Romans 12 most plainly) state 'Predestination'.

That is the tennet that sticks in my throat and I can't swallow. That some are chosen.......means that others are rejected.....

I cannot live with that idea.......and so I must live without it. For in truth, it does say it. It is the main reason that I looked for another way.

Audrey wrote:Rob Bell, the author that i'm reading, compares the ideas of the 'old church' to a brick wall, he states "The problem with brckianity is that walls inevitably keep people out. Often it appears as though you have to agree with all of the bricks exactly as they are or you can't join"

This brick bit (if I am understanding it correctly from your quote) is one of the things that has always bothered me about churches (and to some extent, Christianity).

To increase membership and be more politically correct, they change the rules set down in the Bible. Take homosexuals for instance. The current translations of the Bible spell out pretty clearly that God frowns on homosexuality. Several churches (in Canada at least) are performing gay marriages or have gay clergy.

A clarification first - I do not believe anyone should be judged or discriminated against for their sexual preference.

I don't understand how churches can say the Bible is divine and embrace homosexuality.

Churches and Christianity cannot pick and choose which rules to follow to increase membership, or for whatever other reasons they may have. They just come off looking silly.

Did anyone read the book

The Year of Living Biblically by A.J. Jacobs

Jacobs, a New York Jewish agnostic, decides to follow the laws and rules of the Bible, beginning with the Old Testament, for one year.

I haven't read it yet - but it is on my list.

Jan.[/u]