Beliefs can be manufactured Sab. Look at the war in Iraq. We got tricked into going into another country and getting ourselves and other people killed. On top of that we've spent over 736 billion dollars on that war alone - just Iraq. Say it out loud - SEVEN HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS. You mad at welfare recipients now? Welfare recipients (besides medicaid, child health care, and veteran's pensions) suck in about 117 billion dollars. To run our military machine every year? A little over a trillion.

We know it's wrong to invade another country, kill, and try to take over. We wouldn't want someone else doing it to us. But we did it anyway because we were emotional after 9/11 and politicians used that to lead us down the road of evil.

It's an illegal war. Bush should have been tried for war crimes. Why wasn't he? We've decided that this war is ok???? I guess, so. File liberators under 'double-speak'.

Sabrina and Camacho....really interesting discussion you're having here. I'm enjoying it! Thanks!

The difference between the War in Iraq and The events in this book, is that one is fact, and the other fiction. I'm not really trying to discuss politics here. I'm trying to discuss human nature which was dealt with in the book.
I agree with you in regard to the fact that we should try to understand Winston and understand that he was afraid of the rats.
But it is also true to say that of the proles because they were afraid too. Don't you remember that no-body in the book trusted anybody, because of fear and betrayal.
The only difference between the Proles and Winston was his sheer determination and his willingness to suffer and endure torture. But in the end he did succumb, so he was no better than the average Prole who offered no resistance at all.
That's why I say he was a stubborn chap, that knew what he didn't like, but couldn't define why he didn't like it.
I think Orwell was telling us something, that's why he allowed his main character to become defeated.
Camacheo do you relate to the character of Winston at all?

I agree, beliefs can be and are manufactured, but it Was up to Winston as to whether he believed them or not.
He didn't believe them, that was his choice. But why he didn't believe them wasn't worth facing the rats for and so ultimately not worth having in the first place.
He still had choice and control over his circumstances. No-body could steal him of that choice or control.
Even in the torture chambers he controlled how much torture was inflicted, whether the rats had lunch and whether he would keep his beliefs until the torture took his life.
His beliefs were not strong enough to preserve him through the rat incident. Thats why he failed. And that's why most people who have nothing else to rely on but themselves and their own beliefs will fail too.
So what is the point Orwell is making here?
Yes their powers are so strong that no-body can resist or think of resisting them without suffering. Question is, are you ready to suffer? And if you are, are your beliefs worth suffering for? Because if they are not worth suffering unto death for, and if they are not worth facing your worst fear, then they are not worth having in the first place!
We know from the way the political party is portrayed in the book that Orwell frowns upon these acts, but we also know that it is useless to disagree with their acts without standing on something outside of ourselves.Because we ourselves will fail upon testing. Bit of psychology going on in the book.

I feel very strongly that you haven't got quite inside Winston's skin enough.

I can't stress that Winston was just learning how to be human. He was conditioned to be heartless. Humanity was just beginning to emerge from him.

This makes him a wonder... like a flower growing in a small crack in the sidewalk. It's something beautiful when there is only supposed to be ugly. It fought incredible odds, tried to bloom, faded fast, and died from people constantly walking on it. Was the flower's effort worthless? Was the beauty it could have brought, even by chance, meaningless?

I'll be starting the Iliad now.

Anyone's welcome to join me.

I guess I don't relate to Winston, whereas most people would. I wouldn't just meet someone at work and be out in the wild doing all sorts of wacky stuff. To me that's not beauty either.

I have Started The Temple now, By Michael Reilly. So Far the Americans are chasing an indian idol which is made of an element that can only be found in meteorites called thyrium 261. This element is more destructive than any nuclear bomb, according to a scientist on board the mission, it can destroy up to a third of the earth, leaving no radiation after its destruction, the blast would be so powerful that it would cause the earth to spin away from the sun and be completely destroyed forever.

The Americans posses an old copy of a manuscript written by a monk four hundred years ago. How they are in possession of this script has yet to be revealed. The original copy was stolen from the monastry years earlier by Germans. However, the copy was only half finished when the monk died. They must now find the location of this thyrium based on the copied uncompleted script.
Upon what they think is the spot where the thryium might be found, they are pondering a way into the temple, when some Germans open fire, locking them in a van and then entering the place themselves, only to release and be eaten alive by a bunch of fierce black cats. Only a few casually dressed Germans remain, uniting themselves with the Americans against the attack of the cats.
That's all I have read so far.

Reading right now - Oldest Living Confederate Widow Tells All, by Allan Gurganus. Little more than halfway through, I like it fine. I'm having a little trouble "getting" Lucy. She's not falling into place like really well-drawn characters usually do. But the story (stories, really - there's a million of them!) is compelling.

fallenleaf, pressing on

Still reading the Temple by Reilly, struggling to get through it, haven't spent this long on a book in ages. So much detail about guns and aircrafts and even Math. I like the idea but the actual laying out of the idea really is a bit hard for me to plow through. My only hope is that the ending which is coming soon is going to be a mind blowing one!

Two for the Dough by: Janet Evanovich