I like that. An example is probably political correctness. Free speech has been trampled on. Your ideas may still be your own but they must not be voiced. You have to hide them as well as Winston hides his diary. If more people were allowed to voice their thoughts in a public environment, truth could be found more easily and the world may be a better place.

Truth, even though it is what it is, still needs to be continually rediscovered. It cannot be allowed to be written in stone and forgotten about. It cannot be printed on currency and taken for granted or given up on as a problem solved.

The hubris of some to assume that what they believe is truth without allowing their thoughts to be challenged openly - to explore other possibilities - it's assuming that one is omniscient/perfect/faultless/without error.

The trampling of human nature is something we continually do in our society and this book takes it to the extreme. Humanity in this book is completely drowned. Today we pick and choose which animal instincts are popular to keep and which ones should be repressed. They're still there but are unpopular and must be kept close to the heart and in the shadows. It's distasteful to have certain thoughts which others don't agree with but these thoughts shouldn't be censored - they should be openly discussed to find the reason why and to find truth. No one should bottle up what's in their heads and hearts because fear of backlash. Those with ideas which run contrary to public opinion should be open for friendly discussion because everyone should be eager to find and help others find truth.

Imagine someone so fearful of voicing their opinion that they truly believe something in error and do so for their entire lives. That's a tragedy. The flip side of the coin is of course the person who holds truth but is not brave enough to come forward for fear of reprisal. This needs changing.

I agree. And what made the ending even more difficult to digest was how Winston wasn't just trying to cover up his love for Julia, and vice-versa, but that he actually did not feel it anymore. The state took away his ability to love her. That was the tragedy. I agree we live in a world of extreme political correctness that is foolish, to say the least, but the truth is there - we simply deny or hide what's real. It's when our ability to "feel" and be emotional beings is taken from us, then we are nothing. We will have nothing. I'm sure there are many people who may even believe we are creeping down that path already. We are destroying ourselves - that's the real tragedy.

Yup - I'd like to say that love was the last thing that BB took but that just isn't the case. Although Blair places the love for Julia as the last bit of human virtue Winston has left, Winston is still not denied love in the end. He replaces the love he has for Julia with that of BB.

I'm afraid future generations will laugh at us for denying BB. They'll see our values as archaic... but there will be a Winston and he will be silenced by the crowd. Maybe not killed but silenced. He'll switch his allegiance from himself and his own ideas to whatever is being pumped into his head.

We're all just animals in the long run. Virtues are a luxury that some hold on to more dearly than others and they change a little every day. We relearn this lesson all the time. The words stay the same but the meanings change and change and change.

Like when that girl was raped. Like when that guy was stabbed. Like when that man was robbed. Like when that child was abducted. Like when that man took revenge for the murder of his family and was sentenced to death for it. Like when that man was thrown out of Wal-Mart for spanking his child. Like when that boy was past up for another boy not because of performance but because his skin was the wrong color.... and no one says a word... and the world keeps spinning.

A few other things made the tragedy so powerful for me. First, was the believability of the relationship between Winston and Julia. The way that these are two souls found each other such an oppressive world, and attempted to fight and love against their tormentors was very poignant and touching, as well as credible. It was easy to buy into, which made what was to come even more horrifying.

Second, was what seemed to be this strange sadomasochistic attraction that Winston showed for O'Brien,that went on to displace the natural and human feelings that Winston had for Julia. This had such a sense of monstrousness to it.

Third, what happened inside the mind Winston seemed also believable. But, I will stress the word seemed . I understand the "mechanics" of what happened. By betraying Julia is such a deep and fundamental way, Winston's love for her was annihilated. I also understand that such intensive long term physical and psychological torture would likely scar someone in unalterable way for life. Furthermore, a relationship, after such an ordeal, even if allowed to go on in a safe and normal environment, might very well disintegrate. But, with all that in mind, would such an experience really completely extinguish, without a trace, the love that Winston and Julia had that simply? When I think about it, in the real world, I would guess not. I think something would be left, even if it was terribly damaged. Of course, I am far from qualified to say for certain. I wonder what a professional psychologist who had experience with torture victims would say.

As far the downfall of today's culture, I would say that Ray Bradbury's "Farenhieght 451" comes closer to the mark then Orwell did. In many ways "Farenheight 451" is a work that is a too derivative of "Nineteen Eight - Four". But where, in Orwell's novel, a super oppressive state comes to power after a period of political instability, revolution and war, and literally crushes free will, Bradbury presents a world where the public has voluntarily and enthusiastically given up thinking and reading and happily replaced it with mass media drivel.

The world of 2010 is looking a lot more like Bradbury's to me.

Yes, I think Fahrenheit 451 was terrifyingly accurate (I definitely have to read that one again!) and, my personal favorite, Brave New World, which was much more morally-centered, whereas 1984 is fear/hate-centered.

Also, has anyone ever read "We" by Yevgeny Zamyatin? I've had it collecting dust in my book shelf for a long time, and it's next on my reading list. Apparently he was one of the originators for the massive wave of dystopian literature that came pouring out of the whole USSR ordeal. Supposedly, Ayn Rand and Orwell were both heavily influenced by it.

1984 is a lot more scarier and real for me than BNW. The United States is closer to becoming an Orwellian tragedy in my opinion.

See, now I see a mixture of both. I see them using terrorism tactics, but at the same time, keeping us dumbed-down with a plethora of temporary indulgences - i.e. the mindlessness of media and pop culture.

jill315 wrote:See, now I see a mixture of both. I see them using terrorism tactics, but at the same time, keeping us dumbed-down with a plethora of temporary indulgences - i.e. the mindlessness of media and pop culture.

Yeah, it's the 27 cell phone commercials per half hour. The advertisers, with the help of the news, TV shows, create the need to own this worthless crap. It's all about distraction.

An absolute brilliant piece of satire, but more true than not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AyVh1_vWYQ

Here is a brief conversation with my nephew:

Me: What's new?

Nephew: I just got for my birthday a new laptop.

Me: That's nice.

Nephew: Yeah! It's got Explorer 8?

Me: Um, what does that mean? Explorer 8?

Nephew (searching): Um...I'm not sure, but it's got it!

Distract, distract, distract, distract with bells and buzzes and cute noises we don't really need.

Meanwhile, Iran has developed an intercontinental ballistic missile and north Korea is launching theirs across Japan. Religious fanatics worldwide are posturing for war. Fox News is beating its war drums 24/7. Pakistan, a nuclear power, is increasingly becoming less of an ally. Globalization is increasing and the EU has showed the first signs of creating a bloc similar to 1984. Americans are relinquishing freedoms in favor of "safety". Cameras are becoming more and more popular. People are relying on electronic means to transfer money while the use of paper money is declining. Businesses are consolidating and there is less competition. The federal government is increasing control on various businesses and creating huge resource guzzling agencies - making people rely on the government for jobs. The public is being fooled into believing enemies are enemies when there is no provocation for war.

I'm sure the list goes on...

^^ as I said, a complete mixture of both. We have no grasp of reality anymore - we can't tell what's real from fake - whether it be fear tactics, or indulgence tactics.

As they said in 1984, "In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it .... For, after all, how do we know that two and two made four?.... If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable, what then?"

What then?