These men and women of enormous wealth hold in contempt the people who shout these slogans as much as the doctors and lawyers do who are against teachers keeping their weak little union. It's disgusting to watch these people protect those who they have NOTHING in common with. The rich must be laughing their ass off at these people who make a meager 100-200k per year and wondering how they managed to get such loyal and loud sheep to bleet for them. Don't even get me started on people who make less than that complaining about teachers' salaries. That just blows my mind.

I agree President Camacho. What blows my mind even further is that at one point in America, unions were prolific, employers cared about their employees and the employees grew along with the companies. Both employer and employee invested in the success of the company and both were rewarded. Over the years, unions in most private sector employment were phased out. Employee salaries and benefits became smaller. Now we are at the point where private sector employees, rather than asking what happened to the perks they used to enjoy, are now asking why the public sector is making more? It is simply a race to the bottom and it is a shame that workers are being pitted against each other while corporations are benefitting from tax loopholes and tax credits. Our manufacturing base has been eliminated through outsourcing, we are climbing over each other for jobs, while the goods that we used to make are being made elsewhere for pennies and then imported and sold back to us.

Why should we care that 20% of the population controls 85% of the wealth? We should care because that same 20% over the years has influenced policy for their benefit. That same 20%, would be completely fine if our wages were dropped to the equivalent of foreign workers if it means that their profits increase. Those same 20% has the resources to put a halt to someone who has the dream that they too can reach that level, either by influencing competition and then buying out the smaller business when it cannot keep up or by having regulators increase pressure upon the new business. We should care because these same heads of wealth have fundamentalist ideals and they influence policy by fleecing the pockets of our lawmakers. The average teacher is NOT walking away with six figure salaries. Professors may but, the average teacher isn't. School boards executives are the most likely to be making such figures and they are simply another form of a politician.

No one is saying that unions could not stand to be tweaked especially concerning the inability to outright fire bad teachers but they should not be completely eliminated. To do so would see our collective standard of living decrease to third world status as there would be nothing to compare private sector salaries to. As it stands now many companies no longer offer full time positions with benefits. They would rather hire part-time positions and work them to just under what constitutes full time hours. Saves a bundle on providing benefits.

employers cared about their employees . . . Over the years, unions in most private sector employment were phased out. Employee salaries and benefits became smaller.

Employers did not care about their employees, that is why a union system was instituted. Employee benefits and salaries have not become smaller, but have shown increases.

A thread of statements of belief that are then generalized to everyone, or a majority, with absolutely no evidence.

For example: "But we all know that morals and ethics are a luxury!"
No, Camacho, we don't all know that. You believe that because it reflects your belief system. It's the same as your belief in unions.

I was a working-class person. I never made much money. I provided for my family, am proud of my children, and am not ashamed of my life. I never joined a union no matter what they threatened or what they did.

I remember an immigrant who was driving a cab and going to college who found money left in his cab. He made two long trips out to Long Island to return the money. From your perspective it was a luxury. From his, according to his statements, he had to do it because of who he is.

I have known a lot of moral and ethical people in my life who were poor and I've known very immoral and unethical people who were in the top 5%. I try to live as I was raised.

Employers did not care about their employees, that is why a union system was instituted. Employee benefits and salaries have not become smaller, but have shown increases.[/quote


Ah, so then that explain the wealth disparity in this country. Salaries have not increased, they have flattened and in some cases declined.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-chart ... 010-4?op=1

There used to be a time when companies, upon making a significant profit gave all their employees bonuses as an appreciation for their hard work and dedication. They also used to offer traditional pensions.


"The number of employers providing pensions continues to decline every year. Many companies are now prohibiting new employees from joining the pension plan, and some companies are even freezing new accruals for existing workers."


http://money.usnews.com/money/retiremen ... l-pensions


I am speaking of after the unions were created.

Show me a Patrick who watches his family starving and dying with pride because he hasn't stolen a piece of bread so that they may live. Show me him and look at my face because it'll be filled with disgust and horror. How you can label my perception as a belief and group me into fantasy land with the religious is offensive.

There have been morally correct people on life rafts that have drawn lots to see who will be eaten. There have been plenty of people who have been taught ethically correct behavior that have done the opposite of their teachings to save their own skin. I'm trying to stab as close to the truth as I can and my "belief" comes far closer to reality than your fantasy ideal about honor, nobility, spiritual or home guidance. Gimme a break. It's time to close the fairy tales.

The "belief" is that a person will gain something by being noble when the outcome may be that they and their family will perish for their beliefs. When in reality it's the sane man, the righteous man, that will steal a loaf to keep his family alive. It's not a belief because it's not a human machination - it's what is and will always be. It's the struggle for life.

To raise the bar on life is to ask man to raise his efforts to surpass it. When life gets tougher you will expect a good man to meet and exceed that challenge and not to surrender to an ideal that will see him and his perish. It's absurd to think that. It's defeatist and ultimately just wrong and ignorant to think that a man will, with pride, allow himself and his family to be quietly engulfed and destroyed.


I was a working class person and I got it in my ass everyday. I'd like to see someone in my same predicament... despite increases in productivity, standards of living, and technology; getting it in the ass as hard as I took it!!!!! Why not?????? Wow.... you could be the next Tea Part Candidate of Choice!!! Good luck to you, sir!

Go make North America the next Mexico. With our disparity of income levels we are almost there! You could be the deciding factor in seeing that your dream becomes a reality.

Ah, yes, I enjoy the people who justify their behavior with extreme fantasies. Let's see. If my family were starving I would, gasp, get a job. Or, I would go on the dole. Or, I would beg from a friend. But, I realize those inclined to steal will do ti regardless. I realize those who seethe with jealousy because someone else has more than them will do it regardless. I realize those who take no pride in their work will be convinced they have to give it to someone in the ass to get even.

It's a pitiful way to live but I realize many choose to live that way.

We all have choices to make and some are so shamed by their choices they have to waste time justifying what they do.

I am seventy years old and when I lived in the U.S. I encountered exactly zero people who stole because their family was starving. It is a good story to use for the gullible, though. Thieves are usually dumb as a turnip, totally self-centered, and live a life as perpetual adolescents whining "It isn't fair," and "What about me, me, me." Come to think of it, most of them dump their children anyway so they wouldn't be watching them starve.

By the way, Mexico is in North America.

It is in North America!!! What a blunder. Forgive me and thank you for the correction. I feel that your argument against ethics and morals not being luxuries is lost on me Can you explain why you feel this way? I think you want to make me out to be a defender of immorality and unethical behavior which would mean Im not making myself clear and possibly that you think morals don't have costs associated with them.

This was sent from my phone so excuse any spelling/grammar and or geograhical errors. Lol. Ill write more when I get home.

Alright, home and still stinging from my geography error. I meant USA and didn't mean to include Canada or Mexico but, yes, it was a gross error.

I appreciate any sentiment regarding the working man's pride. This pride in work is what made this country great. My argument is largely about disparities in income and what this will lead to. That's all.

You're 70 years old, right? Ok.... I can work with that

But let's get even more on the same page. Say you're around 29 like me! So the year is maybe 1970. We're both 29 but we live in separate times. You live in the 1970's and I live in 2011. We work... we aren't rich... but there is a difference between us.

You are significantly closer, income wise, to the richest Americans than I am. The Gini Coefficient in 1970 was only 39.4 while in 2009 it was 46.8... and I can't find out what it is today. 100 represents total inequality. You see, the working class person has been pushed down, down, down for his efforts. Still think I want socialism or Communism? No.... This kind of inequality is only represented in third world countries. We're workers and I understand that. We get our hands dirty and we outperform anyone we can. We like to rough it up and win. We don't mind taking a hit.... but.... where is this all going? Why are we getting closer to serfdom? Disparities of income sure don't encourage freedom very well. Don't you agree?

A person on welfare now lives better than I did holding two jobs fifty years ago. I heard a congresswoman whining that some people in her district are so poor they can't afford cable twlevision. That made me just want to sit down and cry for them. Another woman on NPR radio said, "Not having any money is no reason to live poor. That's why we have credit cards." And for years, I was so stupid I thought not having money was a pretty good reason to live poor.

I understand you are very concerned that some people earn a lot more than you do. I don't really understand why but I realize it's true. It does conern you.

I never really cared what you got. I never wanted what you earned or what you had. I never thought it was the government's job to take from you and give to me. I was mostly concerned with what I earned. I earned enough to have a home, educate my children, and, in my modest middle-class way, enjoyed my life.

My grandfather said, among other things, "Don't envy what someone else has, Pat, till you find out what they paid for it and I don't just mean money." I thought he was a smart man.

I am not jealous of what you have. I'm not jealous of what Bill Gates have. I don't understand the millions of people who seem to hate him because he's rich. I'm also not jealous of healthy people who sit around all day loafing and expect taxpayers to support them. I do rather wish they'd quit saying I owe them more. I owe them nothing.

In the U.S., crime for money is a choice. Most criminals engaged in crime for money have the decency to admit that. And, I think I was about 12 when I realized life isn't fair. I do the best I can to help people but I don't feel I owe them a debt.

Welfare... I don't recall bringing up this broken system and have been talking in defense of working people's wages - not those who receive money for not working. Why you'd bring this up, I don't know. To vent? I'm against welfare abuse both by the rich and by the poor but it seems people are more eager to shout about welfare received by the poor than welfare received by the rich. When the rich dodge taxes and receive money for nothing (subsidies) they're smart but when poor people do they're despicable. funny.... Why did you attack poor people first? You didn't even bother including the rich. I see where the focus of your indignation is pointed at - people like you and those below you. This is what I'm talking about.

People earning more than me does concern me as it concerns a lot of other Americans. In a capitalist society, equality of wealth is impossible and also unwanted but extreme inequalities lead to losses of freedom and in America that's something, I hope, we don't want.

To place everything in the hands of one person, a person who is the 'smartest' or wealthiest, I think is a conservative idea that stems from a belief in God. It's the same quitter attitude they have for everything. A trust in some being to take care of everything. Every man should be involved in the decisions of government, every man should have a voice, and every man should hold in contempt any man that doesn't - but it's hard and government is so large and complex now and so top heavy that it's near impossible.

"I never really cared..." Why not? Don't you care that I get 5.00 an hour when you only get 2.00 and we do the exact same job? You don't care about that???? That sounds dumb. Your ideas are costing you money for no reason. You should stop being lazy and find out!

It's not the governments job to take from others and give to others even though it constantly redistributes wealth all the time. I agree with you here. BUT... it is the government's job to protect freedom and that's why there are laws against certain monopolies. Would you be upset that you had to pay unfair prices to a man who owned a monopoly on goods you needed? Why? You shouldn't be jealous of his success. He made it! Right?

You have sharp teeth for your own kind. You enjoy tearing yours up and those below you, it seems like.

I'm not jealous of Bill Gates, either. But I bet you he wouldn't think twice about having a software monopoly. Do you think he'd say "ok" if the government offered it to him? I bet you he would. Doesn't that make you want to keep an eye on him? To protect your freedoms? Maybe not.... Maybe you don't "really care". That's cool. I guess I'll have to care for you.