In another way, Penelope's statement is correct, though. What we call our lives, against what Robert calls life, i.e., biological life, is indeed a series of random accidents, except that who our parents are has a genetic influence over our development. That provides our only destiny, and it's a weak one. Otherwise we are subject to random events mostly outside of our control. I think this is a healthy perspective, not a fatalistic one. It prevents us from giving ourselves too much credit for our apparent achievements and from blaming others too much for their seeming failures.

Recent discoveries, no not discoveries, observances, in quantum physics, have noted that sub-atomic particles, don't react in the way they are expected to. It 'seems' as though they behave differently when they are being observed by the human eye.

I have no doubt they will find out why this is, but it is interesting that the concentrating of our minds can affect things at a sub-atomic level.

I do believe that the human mind is capable of far more than we realise. That is, that it has an affect on matter. Well, it seems to from the scientific information programmes we have been viewing very recently on our TVs.

It just occurs to me, that if science is observing this phenomenon, then that might be giving us a clue about the power of human creativity.

It is very odd that human beings insist on claiming that their religious views are 'the truth' without giving any proof, other than that conforming to one set of dogma or another, makes one feel better.

Scientists, on the other hand, are continually providing proof....but when asked about why certain phenomena happen, they readily admit that they don't know. At the frontiers of science, there is no claiming of absolute and complete knowledge at all.

Who is the most honest? I know I tend to trust the scientists, but that doesn't mean that there is no 'pattern' that there is only chaos and randomness. And that is why I am interested and pleased to listen to what Robert Tulip has to say.

And...that is why I hated to tick 'No Religion' on the census form.

I avoid telling the government anything I don't have to and since they routinely lie to me I have no problem lying to them. Except on taxes. Lie on taxes and they will destroy you and your children.

patrickt wrote:

I avoid telling the government anything I don't have to and since they routinely lie to me I have no problem lying to them.

Well, I don't like lying and I just don't want to be dishonest, simply for my own self-respect.

We don't want to emulate our governments and media now do we? (And in fact our religious establishments!!)

Although, history shows that as individuals, we can get into terrible trouble if we're too truthful. I suppose the trick is not to lie, but to learn how to withold information skillfully. What one refers to as 'being economical with the truth'.

Penelope wrote:

patrickt wrote:

I avoid telling the government anything I don't have to and since they routinely lie to me I have no problem lying to them.

Well, I don't like lying and I just don't want to be dishonest, simply for my own self-respect.

We don't want to emulate our governments and media now do we? (And in fact our religious establishments!!)

Although, history shows that as individuals, we can get into terrible trouble if we're too truthful. I suppose the trick is not to lie, but to learn how to withold information skillfully. What one refers to as 'being economical with the truth'.

I'm sorry but there is no trick. I'm sorry you don't appreciate lying. Honesty is grossly overrated and is often used as an excuse for being rude. A teacher told my 8-year old daughter she didn't like her and never would. When I spoke to the teacher she gave me a smarmy lecture on honesty. Well, I had an attack of honesty and you'd be surprised at how quickly the teacher's love of honesty evaporated. I kept being honest as she hurried to the principal's office.

My mother made a distinction between "story telling" and "lying". It's a distinction, obviously, that people here should appreciate. For example, for me, when I told a group of liberals that the government was outsourcing the printing of U.S. currency to China I was story-telling.

And, another. If I'm responding to a census form which asks for race, am I required to stick to what I can prove? Why can't I claim to be anything I want in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

DWill wrote:who our parents are ... provides our only destiny, and it's a weak one.

There is far more to destiny than genetics. Destiny is the operation of causality in human affairs. Cultural memes have a causal structure that shapes fate.

The Greek philosopher Heraclitus said "ethos anthropoi daimon", which translates as 'our cultural environment determines human spiritual evolution', or 'a man's character is his guardian angel', or 'character is fate', or 'karma is real' or even 'history evolves by an internal logic'.

Character is the composition of all the causal processes of identity. The complexity of character is the force of destiny.

This is not to say all is determined without chance, but that the forces of determination exhibit definite strong patterns. Men of destiny understand these patterns and make their own luck.

patrick wrote:

I'm sorry but there is no trick. I'm sorry you don't appreciate lying. Honesty is grossly overrated and is often used as an excuse for being rude. A teacher told my 8-year old daughter she didn't like her and never would.

That was unforgiveable of that teacher. Anyway, it is a lie because she couldn't know that she would 'never' like her. It is like the wedding service when we promise to 'love' a person until death us do part. We can't promise that can we? We can't even promise to like a person till death us do part. We can only promise to try.

That teacher was most unprofessional - and if it had been my child, I would have probably 'honestly' felt like rearranging her teeth for her. Doctors and Teachers and Nurses and such professionals should never give us a clue whether they like us or not.

Your are right in that, we should lie in order not to hurt another persons feelings deliberately. But I wasn't meaning 'being brutally candid' about one's emotions. I meant being able to look oneself in the face - and like and respect what you see. That's my test for dishonesty, or otherwise, anyway. I was talking about judging myself, not other people.

Shakespeare put it in a nutshell with 'This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man. ...'

Robert Tulip:

Life is far from random.

Currently here (states) to say something is "random" is slang. My grandson says it all the time. I really dislike it as I agree nothing is random. I am an atheist and I did not know that atheists are supposed to think that events are "random" as they certainly are not. None of us truly believe so or we would never teach our children anything.

Patrick, I fail to see how an individual (and if one, why not all?) lying to the government improves things for anyone, including the liar.

'Life is far from Random' says Robert. Just purely for entertainment purposes - I would like to post this quote from Terry Pratchett:

Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.

Occasionally he would straighten up and say things like "Hurrah, I've discovered Boyle's Third Law." And everyone knew where they stood. But the trouble was that ignorance became more interesting, especially big fascinating ignorance about huge and important things like matter and creation, and people stopped patiently building their little houses of rational sticks in the chaos of the universe and started getting interested in the chaos itself-partly because it was a lot easier to be an expert on chaos, but mostly because it made really good patterns that you could put on a t-shirt.

And instead of getting on with proper science scientists suddenly went around saying how impossible it was to know anything, and that there wasn't really anything you could call reality to know anything about, and how all this was tremendously exciting, and incidentally did you know there were possibly all these little universes all over the place but no one can see them because they are all curved in on themselves? Incidentally, don't you think this is a rather good t-shirt?

"Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized."
— Terry Pratchett (Interesting Times)

"If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards!"
— Terry Pratchett (The Color of Magic)

Shallot: "Patrick, I fail to see how an individual (and if one, why not all?) lying to the government improves things for anyone, including the liar."

Balance. Telling the truth doesn't always improve things for anyone, either, including the one telling the truth. Out of curiosity, do you think the government ever intentionally tells the truth?