kelstan wrote:

And 100% of people disbelieve in most of the world's Gods and religious claims -- the one they were born into happens to be an exception. Believers should reflect on that fact, and yet they rarely do.

What if we HAVE reflected on that and still choose to believe? What if we have chosen not to believe in the faith in which we were born, but have instead chosen a different faith. Can you be tolerant of an informed and educated choice? I don't believe in "GOD" nor heaven nor hell, but I do believe in deity. I believe deity exists within me, within you, and in every living thing, and even some things that are not living. I KNOW there is no proof of such a concept, and yet I choose to BELIEVE it. I don't claim that I am right or that anyone else is wrong. I think everyone has to find their own path to faith and deity (or not, if that is their choice.) I believe in a greater spirit because it comforts me to do so. And what is wrong with feeling comforted? Certainly, looked at from a purely intellectual stand point, I will freely admit there is nothing to prove deity exists, yet we are not purely intellectual creatures, but emotional ones as well, and my belief nurtures that part of me. We cannot prove the existance of love and hate, and yet I believe in them, too. My point is, my beliefs are my own, and I have a right to them. I don't expect you to believe as I do, I merely expect you to respect my right to believe as I choose.

Wait a minute here. Deity is generally in reference to some primitive idea of God, like some personified Gray Bearded male up in the sky. Most people are careful to differentiate between some primitive idea such as deity and God as the power or sustaining energy behind all that exists (such as the women I answered in the above post). So this apology of yours is interesting because it's very confused. You've taken the outdated term "Deity" and then applied it to the usual New Age type concept of finding the 'divine energy' within yourself and indeed within all things. So I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this one

Dexter wrote:If you find Poseidon to be a nice metaphor or symbol, then by all means use it. But it was a false belief. How does it help to understand anything? If someone actually believed in Poseidon today, wouldn't you question their mental fitness? I would claim that 100% of mentally fit people understand that Poseidon does not exist. And 100% of people disbelieve in most of the world's Gods and religious claims -- the one they were born into happens to be an exception. Believers should reflect on that fact, and yet they rarely do.

As a true believer in Poseidon, allow me to explain his existence.

Poseidon is the power of the ocean. In ancient Greece, vessels hugged the coast because the open sea was too dangerous. When Darius tried to invade Greece in 492 BC, his fleet was wrecked by Poseidon at Mount Athos.

Poseidon gets mad at Ulysses for his impious hubris, especially when Ulysses mocks Poseidon's son the cyclops Polyphemus after blinding him. This is why Ulysses had to undertake his odyssey before returning home, helping the Greeks to learn respect for the sea.

We can say now that Poseidon does not exist because we think modern technology is more powerful than the ocean and earthquakes. If the Japanese had shown more respect for Poseidon, by building their reactors to be safe against tsunamis, they could have avoided the Fukushima meltdown.

Poseidon, in alliance with Gaia, is currently storing up considerable anger against humanity in the form of ocean heat, caused by anthropogenic global warming.

The hubris that identifies Poseidon with his anthropomorphic representation is a product of the arrogant modern ignorance of the power of nature.

Deity is generally in reference to some primitive idea of God, like some personified Gray Bearded male up in the sky.

No, I find deity an acceptable term because I do not subscribe to the notion of an oppressive patriarchal "GOD", and thus in all fairness cannot use the term goddess either. Deity is gender neutral. I also like "The All." Would that suit you?

tjamesmoss.author wrote: Yet, we are 100% sure that there is a force beyond what we understand that controls the oceans and the winds and even the pull we say the moon has on the waters.

Really? Those aren't even hard scientific questions. (They were to ancient Greeks of course)

tjamesmoss.author wrote: I think we must all give ourselves room to discover the truths of these theories. You would be surprised what you will see if you point your lens in the direction of the variable.

tjamesmoss.author wrote: I err on the side of not being impressed with the "power of existence." Existence is ephemeral, unpredictable, spontaneous and selfish. If we are only here because of the "power of existence," then we are all in trouble.

Is this from Deepak Chopra or something? It's not clear what your words mean. Existence is "selfish"?

kelstan wrote:

Deity is generally in reference to some primitive idea of God, like some personified Gray Bearded male up in the sky.

No, I find deity an acceptable term because I do not subscribe to the notion of an oppressive patriarchal "GOD", and thus in all fairness cannot use the term goddess either. Deity is gender neutral. I also like "The All." Would that suit you?

I'm Pantheist and "The All" is just fine. I understand that. You're talking about existence itself, unlimited, eternal, and everywhere - not some particular being or deity which is roaming around through existence living or visiting here or there. Deity just gives off the impression of a mythological God like Zeus, or Yahweh, or Brahma, etc. etc. And so freethinkers will respond to the claim in the way of responding to Yahweh, or Zeus, or whomever. I don't think anyone has a problem with saying that "The All" is our source, our creator, and everywhere both within and without us. But it's not some deity being within us and without us. You get the general point here don't you?

There is no such thing as posie-whatever.

(author) Katelyn wrote:There is no such thing as posie-whatever.

Are you trying to say Poseidon?

There's no such thing as Zombie Jesus either.

tat tvam asi wrote:

tjamesmoss.author wrote:

tat tvam asi wrote:And what power would that be? The power of existence itself, as a whole?

I err on the side of not being impressed with the "power of existence." Existence is ephemeral, unpredictable, spontaneous and selfish. If we are only here because of the "power of existence," then we are all in trouble.

What, then, is beyond the whole of existence? Obviously, that puts this proposed power as non-existent, outside of existing. No literal force, power, energy, mind, or anything whatsoever can be outside of existence, if you propose that any force, power, energy, or mind (eternal or otherwise) "exists."

That means "existing" in this realm or dimension or any other you can possibly dream up. If you propose that something exists, here or anywhere at all, you have then placed it into "existence" in some way. If not, then you are proposing that this God does not "exist." This is nothing new or strange around here, it's actually beating a dead horse that you must not be aware of yet. So there's the corpse, here's the bat, and would you like to continue?

I think, perhaps, you misunderstood my use of "power of existence." Some people believe that to exist is to have escaped the odds of being destroyed via the power of natural selection. There are various theories of natural selection, where existence itself is imbued with the power to choose who lives or who dies... who is allowed to exist and who is not allowed to be created... who or what speaks, hears, walks, talks, etc.

The idea of a God who creates changes the onus of power. If there is no God, nature itself is granted "power" to choose who and what "exists." If there is a God, the power then rests with him, a single being who willfully creates and destroys beings and existences.

If you say, "Oh, but we know matter is neither created nor destroyed," then you are simply admitting that you have no idea how it was created nor how is can be done or sustained. By saying this, as an intellect, you are saying you do not truly understand the creative nature... the deep inner workings... of how matter functions. Neither do I. I am comfortable knowing that I don't know.

In the same way that I am comfortable knowing that I don't know, I am comfortable saying that the idea that nature is wise enough to select, create, progress or depress individual existences is more incredulous than the idea of a God who does this intelligently and with purpose. If nature does all the selecting, then the winds, the sunshine, the waters, the soil, the lava in our volcanoes, the rain that falls from the clouds, the light the stars emit... all of them filled with the same particles that choose existences... are smarter than us, more functional, more powerful, more rational.

Do you believe that?

Dexter wrote:

tjamesmoss.author wrote: Yet, we are 100% sure that there is a force beyond what we understand that controls the oceans and the winds and even the pull we say the moon has on the waters.

Really? Those aren't even hard scientific questions. (They were to ancient Greeks of course)

tjamesmoss.author wrote: I think we must all give ourselves room to discover the truths of these theories. You would be surprised what you will see if you point your lens in the direction of the variable.

tjamesmoss.author wrote: I err on the side of not being impressed with the "power of existence." Existence is ephemeral, unpredictable, spontaneous and selfish. If we are only here because of the "power of existence," then we are all in trouble.

Is this from Deepak Chopra or something? It's not clear what your words mean. Existence is "selfish"?

I should be clearer. Observe yourself. As rational as you are, if you are placed between a rock and a hard place, you will make a number of rugged, dogged decisions to maintain your own survival. You are not the only exigent being that does this... plants will lean, sharks attack, birds of prey abduct, and so forth and so on. Any being that exist will consume until it is selfishly satisfied. This is science. You know this.

As a result, if we are all dependent on some force of natural selection, then you will agree that at some point the very energies that created us will consume us. That is what nature does; it consumes.

Robert Tulip wrote:

Dexter wrote:If you find Poseidon to be a nice metaphor or symbol, then by all means use it. But it was a false belief. How does it help to understand anything? If someone actually believed in Poseidon today, wouldn't you question their mental fitness? I would claim that 100% of mentally fit people understand that Poseidon does not exist. And 100% of people disbelieve in most of the world's Gods and religious claims -- the one they were born into happens to be an exception. Believers should reflect on that fact, and yet they rarely do.

As a true believer in Poseidon, allow me to explain his existence.

Poseidon is the power of the ocean. In ancient Greece, vessels hugged the coast because the open sea was too dangerous. When Darius tried to invade Greece in 492 BC, his fleet was wrecked by Poseidon at Mount Athos.

Poseidon gets mad at Ulysses for his impious hubris, especially when Ulysses mocks Poseidon's son the cyclops Polyphemus after blinding him. This is why Ulysses had to undertake his odyssey before returning home, helping the Greeks to learn respect for the sea.

We can say now that Poseidon does not exist because we think modern technology is more powerful than the ocean and earthquakes. If the Japanese had shown more respect for Poseidon, by building their reactors to be safe against tsunamis, they could have avoided the Fukushima meltdown.

Poseidon, in alliance with Gaia, is currently storing up considerable anger against humanity in the form of ocean heat, caused by anthropogenic global warming.

The hubris that identifies Poseidon with his anthropomorphic representation is a product of the arrogant modern ignorance of the power of nature.

I'll tell you what, Mr. Tulip. There is enough respect for balance and accountability in that post that I respect you for being so wise. I don't believe in Poseidon, but I do clearly observe the power of the waters and how the destruction of certain natural relationships will unleash a fury of punishment. Thanks for that post.