stahrwe wrote:You are incorrect about Stalin, Mao, Pott, et al, they murdered in furtherence of the state which was, in their system, godless.

My statement concerning Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao is absolutely correct. None of these monstrous people killed anyone in the name of no god, much less in the name of atheism. Being killed by an atheist does not mean being killed in the name of atheism. If Stalin were a vegan, would you say that he killed in the name of vegetarianism? No.

It looks like you have started to read Riniolo, which I think is great. In it he talks about some of the logical fallacies that people are prone to, one fallacy being that correlation implies causation. I would no sooner accredit Stalin's murderous acts to atheism than I would accredit George Bush's to being a Texan. Correlation does not imply causation.

Frank,

It is unfortunate that you are relying on a report which is not based on primary sources. It cites a review of a report which the article itself says is no longer online, how convenient.

If you go to barna.org, you will see the actual statistics.

CWT36 wrote:It looks like you have started to read Riniolo, which I think is great. In it he talks about some of the logical fallacies that people are prone to, one fallacy being that correlation implies causation. I would no sooner accredit Stalin's murderous acts to atheism than I would accredit George Bush's to being a Texan. Correlation does not imply causation.

I think I'm mistaken about you reading Riniolo, am I? I think it may have been on the Dawkins discussion that you posted. Sorry about that.

Star
It is unfortunate that you are relying on a report which is not based on primary sources. It cites a review of a report which the article itself says is no longer online, how convenient.

And it is unfortunate that you rely on an ancient Bronze Age, fallible, ignorant, vile, fairy-tale book to base your world view on… and that you listen to religious propaganda which is pure bunk... as is shown above in your last statement to me.

Later

Athiests and crime…

In "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about one-tenth of one percent. W.T. Root, Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said, "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from penitentiaries, or nearly so.

Athiests and marriage…

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is Plus or minus 2 percentage points. The survey found:

11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.

Athiests and intelligence…

All but four of the forty-three polls listed support the conclusion that native intelligence varies inversely with degree of religious faith; i.e., that, other factors being equal, the more intelligent a person is, the less religious he is.

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Religi ... telligence

Skeptic, vol.6 #2 1998
In multiple studies, there is a negative correlation between theism and morality. By Franzblau's 1934 study, there's a negative correlation between religiousity and honesty. Ross 1950 shows atheists and agnostics are more likely to express their willingness to help the poor than the deeply religious. 1969 Hirschi and Stark found no correlation in lawbreaking by churchgoing children and non-churchgoing children.

This same Skeptic published the results of another study that compared professions and likelihood of believing in God. The general public was just over 90% likely to believe in God. Scientists in general were just under 40% likely. Mathematicians were just over 40% likely, biologists just under 30%, and physicists were barely over 20% likely to believe in God.

Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious.

Free atheist societies…

In his new book, Society Without God, Phil Zuckerman looks at the Danes and the Swedes—probably the most godless people on Earth. They don't go to church or pray in the privacy of their own homes; they don't believe in God or heaven or hell. But, by any reasonable standard, they're nice to one another. They have a famously expansive welfare and health care service. They have a strong commitment to social equality. And—even without belief in a God looming over them—they murder and rape one another significantly less frequently than Americans do.

Denmark and Sweden aren't exceptions. A 2005 study by Gregory Paul looking at 18 democracies found that the more atheist societies tended to have relatively low murder and suicide rates and relatively low incidence of abortion and teen pregnancy.

Well that should suffice for now…

Later

Colin,

sorry, but your analogy fails. Texas is a geographical location and though there are some traits associated with the population, it isn't in and of itself a defining blueprint for an individual's morality. The Soviet model was to make the state the religion of the people. Children were taught that there was no God. The Bible was banned (you probably would approve of that but it wasn't for scientific reasons it was out of fear). The result was a leadership that massacred its own citizens and stayed in power through fear. When the USSR finally collapsed, they realized that they were spiritually bankrupt and the governments invited Christians to come and teach about Jesus in their public schools. Isn't that ironic?

Star: "sorry, but your analogy fails."

His analogy fails for a reason more fundamental than the applicability of the variable. It fails because correlation does not equal causation. The correlation of the evils of a communist country to atheism ignores the law of parsimony. You're failing elementary school critical thinking here my friend.

Want to talk about why rationalization is an invalid method of explaining biblical difficulties yet? If not, let me know when you're ready.

My use of sarcasm may have failed, but my statement stands on its merits.

I really don't care to start another debate where you will confidently state your assertion then avoid directly answering clearly worded questions (ie: Noah's ark, ostriches, dinosaurs). However, please consider the following:

Marxism, communism and atheism are not interchangeable words.

Karl Marx himself said, "Atheism as a denial of this unreality; has no longer any meaning, for atheism is a denial of God and tries to assert through this negation the existence of man; but socialism as such no longer needs this mediation." Atheism was one stop Marx made on his path to communism, just as a Russian Orthodox seminary was one stop on Stalin's path.

Since Karl Marx repudiated atheism as needless, you can hardly conclude that atheism was the reason for his atrocities. Stalin's actions were in the name of communist dogmatism and narcissism.

Since Karl Marx repudiated atheism as needless, you can hardly conclude that atheism was the reason for his atrocities.

Marx did not commit atrocities. The people who tried to implement his ideas did. I think that Communism is one of those really nice philosophies that does not quite meet the ideal when people get involved. Kind of like what I have discovered working for a non-profit, feminist organization…

CWT36 wrote:Marxism, communism and atheism are not interchangeable words.

Karl Marx himself said, "Atheism as a denial of this unreality; has no longer any meaning, for atheism is a denial of God and tries to assert through this negation the existence of man; but socialism as such no longer needs this mediation." Atheism was one stop Marx made on his path to communism, just as a Russian Orthodox seminary was one stop on Stalin's path.

Since Karl Marx repudiated atheism as needless, you can hardly conclude that atheism was the reason for his atrocities. Stalin's actions were in the name of communist dogmatism and narcissism.

Colin, perhaps you are not aware of how militant godless atheism was a central unifying ideological theme for Soviet tyranny. You may wish to read information on the persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union and the league of the militant godless.