The older I get the more important I think it is to kind of stand up and be counted. Do you of the atheistic position share your philosophy with others? My family knows I am an atheist but while they don't mind sharing their church going beliefs and activities with me they don't want to hear anything I have to say.

I have, but not often, told others. I have found the response to be shock. How do you all handle this or do you just ignore such discussions?

You may well find that much of the shock is simply at finding out that your views differ to what they thought.

I think the best way to have them listen is to show them by example. If they see that you're just as peaceable, caring and moral as they are, then they'll see that there's value in what you believe, just as there's value in what they believe.

If nothing else, it's worth remembering that really they're atheists too - of the thousands of gods, you only believe in one less than them!

Most people give me a big ol surprised look and then sometimes try to convince me i am wrong about being an atheist. Not that atheism is wrong, but that i have mis-diagnosed my belief, somehow.

"An atheist wouldn't believe that" or "Atheists don't have any beliefs" are things i have heard more than a few times.

I am more than happy to discuss my lack of belief, as it only seems natural. Those who know that i am not superstitious usually look at me witha bit of fear around christmas time though, like i am going to storm over and tear down the chrsitmas tree, or knock over the feast table.

Mostly the relatives my age who know that i am not superstitious don't want me to bring it up to the elder members of my family, like my grandmother. I don't go out of my way, but if somebody asks me my thoughts, i tell them candidly.

Funny story.

This last christmas my niece was hanging around while i spoke with my mother, who had asked if we were celebrating christmas this year.

I said, i don't think Jesus ever existed, so why would i throw him a month-long birthday party?

My niece got all spook-faced. that face people make when they are telling you a ghost story that they half-believe, or telling you how to handle being abducted by aliens, and she said that because i didn't believe Jesus was going to send us a bad winter storm.

She has him confused with Khione.

The older I get the more important I think it is to kind of stand up and be counted.

There is an applicable part of the video found on this link, which talks about people who hold opinions which they believe to be part of the minority do not volunteer that information, re-inforcing the false indication of 100% oposition to their postion.

Even if the sample group is divided 50/50, nobody wanting to be singled out, nobody raises their hand, and all the people who agree with them see this lack of agreement as confirmation that they hold a minority postiion, even when they do not.

http://www.booktalk.org/fight-conformit ... t9959.html

I think the best way to have them listen is to show them by example. If they see that you're just as peaceable, caring and moral as they are, then they'll see that there's value in what you believe, just as there's value in what they believe.

Well of course my sisters know all my characteristics. I don't think they think there is any value in what I believe (or disbelieve.) I also don't see much value in what they believe either. It gives them a place to go Sunday morning and a sense of community but that is not belief.

Their belief is in what the Bible says and if I also value that then why am I an atheist?

As far as other people go. . . mostly it is common for people to make an off the cuff remark about their religious beliefs. . .this is strangers I mean. for instance on some of the sites I visit, people will have a tag line, something like this. . . "I am what I am because he is who he is!" Some sort of religious thing or they will make reference to praying or some sort of remark, like "God never gives you a burden that is too heavy too bear"

Atheists mainly have to remain mute in these instances. When what I want to say is there is no God. And also that people often have burdens too heavy to bear & they die!

I certainly don't bring it up.....it's a bit like constantly explaining that you don't believe in the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, etc. But, if I am in an environment where theists feel it necessary to talk about their beliefs or, even worse, proselytize, then, yes! I most certainly and adamantly mention atheism. I have just as much right to discuss what I don't believe as they do discussing what they believe.

lady of shallot wrote:

I think the best way to have them listen is to show them by example. If they see that you're just as peaceable, caring and moral as they are, then they'll see that there's value in what you believe, just as there's value in what they believe.

Well of course my sisters know all my characteristics. I don't think they think there is any value in what I believe (or disbelieve.) I also don't see much value in what they believe either. It gives them a place to go Sunday morning and a sense of community but that is not belief.

Their belief is in what the Bible says and if I also value that then why am I an atheist?

As far as other people go. . . mostly it is common for people to make an off the cuff remark about their religious beliefs. . .this is strangers I mean. for instance on some of the sites I visit, people will have a tag line, something like this. . . "I am what I am because he is who he is!" Some sort of religious thing or they will make reference to praying or some sort of remark, like "God never gives you a burden that is too heavy too bear"

Atheists mainly have to remain mute in these instances. When what I want to say is there is no God. And also that people often have burdens too heavy to bear & they die!

You can agree with a lot of what the bible says and still be an atheist - after all most atheists think we should treat others fairly and care for those in need. Being an atheist doesn't mean a blanket diagreement with the bible, just as being a christian, for most at least, doesn't mean a blanket, literal agreement with it. I think that if any atheist can understand that - even a very radical atheist, if you want to be one! - then they can realise that there is value in what the other side believes,and common ground to work from.

It's also the route to a respectful and productive relationship. If both sides acknowldge that the other has a valid position and deserves the right to hold it if they want to then there can be a productive discussion. If we start by calling names, misrepresenting their position and being abusive then yes, there will be conflict. That's not a route to living peacefully with each other - but there again, perhaps those who do that should ask themselves whether anyone is likely to want to change their view to match those of someone who's so angry and unhappy that they call complete strangers names and pick fights with them?

Thanks for your response Squelch. I did not know there were levels of atheism. To me it is just a rejection of mythological beliefs. Maybe I should explain that I am 76 and not a new kid on the block in my beliefs. The only route I have found to a "respectful and productive relationship" is to remain silent about atheism.

Squelch said:
" If both sides acknowldge that the other has a valid position and deserves the right to hold it if they want to then there can be a productive discussion. If we start by calling names, misrepresenting their position and being abusive then yes, there will be conflict. That's not a route to living peacefully with each other - but there again, perhaps those who do that should ask themselves whether anyone is likely to want to change their view to match those of someone who's so angry and unhappy that they call complete strangers names and pick fights with them?"

I'm not sure I understand the above. Are you suggesting that you think this is the way I behave?

I am currently reading "The End of Faith" and one of the major threats Sam Harris sees in our contemporary religious moderation (which I think is what you are saying) is that very great danger can come to us if we do not recognize that others are far from practicing that. For instance like flying planes into the world trade center, because the people on the planes and in those buildings are all infidels and deserve to die.

When I speak of belief in the Bible, I am not referring to the beauty of the literature of it which is often found. I am speaking of beliefs in Jesus. Jesus being the son of God. Born of a virgin. Adam and Eve, the garden of eden. I am speaking of a literal belief in the Bible.

Oblivion, you are like me in this not discussing our atheism. I think maybe this is a mistake. Because being silent, gives tacit agreement when religious remarks are made. It also does not allow others who might agree with us to speak their piece. I understand in Germany you have a large percentage of the population that is atheist. It is quite different here where most people (something like 88%) profess to have a belief in the supernatural.

In the kind of world we live in today it is potentially dangerous for people to hold beliefs; through custom, and training that any logical exploration of would prove ridiculous. If you think about the people you know who are religious, do you think any of them have questioned any of the things they believe?

Are you suggesting that you think this is the way I behave?

Oh goodness, no. I'm sorry if I seemed to be suggesting that. But there are a great many atheists whose take on "discussion" is to misrepresent others beliefs by accusing them of believing in "sky fairies" for example, or by ouright abusing and insulting them, calling them deluded and suggesting that they must be deficient or mentally ill.

great danger can come to us if we do not recognize that others are far from practicing that. For instance like flying planes into the world trade center, because the people on the planes and in those buildings are all infidels and deserve to die.

It's true, religious belief can lead to terrible atrocities. But so can atheism. At least three of the top five worst mass murderers of all time were atheists. On the flip side, some of the greatest philanthropists and champions of civil rights and equality were and are believers. And some atheists have been genuises and leaders of revolutions in the quality of human life.

The point is that there is no simple description of either group - it's not a black and white issue. Any believer has as much right to be aggrieved at being compared to or grouped with the 9/11 terrorists as you might be if I compared you to Stalin.

In the kind of world we live in today it is potentially dangerous for people to hold beliefs; through custom, and training that any logical exploration of would prove ridiculous. If you think about the people you know who are religious, do you think any of them have questioned any of the things they believe?

I think what's really dangerous is dismissing huge numbers of people as mindless idiots, particularly when the evidence says that that is just not the case. There are almost certainly some believers who don't question their own ideas. And for every one there's an atheist who parrots Richard Dawkins without asking whether what he says is right or fair. In between, there's the rest of us on both sides, who question, discuss, debate and struggle with evolution, theology, science and spirituality in more or less equal measures.

[quote="Squelch
"
"At least three of the top five worst mass murderers of all time were atheists." This is often quoted but what you have to remember is that these atheists (actually Hitler was Catholic) did not commit these murders in the "name" of atheism. Nor were their targets "believers"


. "Any believer has as much right to be aggrieved at being compared to or grouped with the 9/11 terrorists as you might be if I compared you to Stalin."

It wasn't any belief system that flew planes into the world trade center. It was Muslims. They did so in the name of religion.


"I think what's really dangerous is dismissing huge numbers of people as mindless idiots,"

I did not say that. I would not "dismiss huge numbers of people" as they have a huge impact on our world.

"there's an atheist who parrots Richard Dawkins without asking whether what he says is right or fair."
Can you cite where you have read this?

Atheism means against theism. You would first have to be acquainted with religion before you could be against it.