On atheistcamel.blogspot.com there is the following quote

"No. Christian doctrine is very clear, very succinct, and very definitive: The only way to the Father is through the Son. In other words, unless one believes in the divinity of Jesus before they die they cannot enter heaven and are cast into Hell with the rest of the damned. And there, according to Christian tradition, the inmates are tortured endlessly. They burn in a lake of fire. They are tormented by demons. This all lasts for an eternity with no hope of relief. According to Christianity this is where Anne Frank is now. Those in heaven are treated to live video feeds of the damned going through this eternal punishment --sort of a special reward for belief."

While the sad fact is that she is condemned, the believers are not watching the torment.

BTW, Bart, you are braver than I thought. If a fundamentalist muslim should hear about your website and see what you have done with Mohammed's face, you may have more problems than me to deal with. If I were you I'd consider pulling that picture pdq.

While the sad fact is that she is condemned, the believers are not watching the torment.

What!? How would you know? Are you God? And do you say these things just to get people riled up?

I have neglected to engage in much of the way of dialogue with you so far stahrwe because, I thought to myself, is there much to be gained by exchanging ideas with a man who believes in the most fantastical ideas?

Your mention of Anne Frank has inspired me to write however. As an iconic symbol of innocence brutalized, persecuted, and eventually killed by a fascist philosophy, your writing her off as “condemned” strikes me as amazing. A teenage girl casually stricken off the register because….what? She was a Jew? She didn’t acknowledge Jesus Christ before she was gassed to death in the concentration camp?

But maybe I shouldn’t be so amazed. Fear is a great motivator in human behavior. The fear of death, the fear of depredation, the fear of ridicule, the fear of impotence, fear of meaninglessness………the list goes on. The flip side of fear is anger. It is the attempt to dig our claws in, to hold on, and to make ourselves safe- to remove us from these threats. Fear can generate corresponding levels assertiveness.

All religions are fear-based. There mass appeal stems from their exploitation of the existential angst of their adherents. All of us have questions about the meaning of life, and the purpose of the universe. Religion answers those questions. And it does it in a way that frees its adherents from fear. Death? There is no death, we will live forever. Meaning? It’s all in the book- only one book, which makes it easy even for the semi-illiterate. Those that are fearful will look for solidity. If they feel themselves in a chaotic stream, they will reach for a solid rock. This is only human nature, but for some, stability is worth more than truth.

Science it the opposite of religion. It is based on courage, to the extent that it says this: We don’t know what is out there, but we are willing to thrust into the darkness, and will take what comes. Truth is worth risk. It is better to take some chances, and better understand the universe, than it is to take refuge in what is safe, easy, comfortable, familiar, and reinforcing.

If you read this, and are tempted to reply, as you hold on to your crucifix, or perhaps leaf through your copy of the bible to find an appropriate rebuttal, I urge you to consider this: What is your real motivation? Is it the foolish infidels at BT? Or is this about you?

I can remember seeing the Buddhist monks going about their business in Thailand and Laos. These are societies that seem to take their spiritual beliefs very seriously. They are ingrained in the life of the people, to a vastly larger extent than such ideas are in this part of the world. But something interesting occurred to me about Buddhists as apposed to Christians. Many less than respectful tourists would often make light of the local religious shrines, having their photo taken with a can of beer in front of a Buddha statue, gawking and intruding on a Buddhist watt. The reaction was inevitably this: the locals didn’t really give a rat’s a**. In other words, they knew what they knew, and didn’t need others acceptance or support. They were unshakable. They no more needed to push Buddhism on me, than I needed to jam Canadian maple syrup down their throat.

What need are you fulfilling strahrwe? If there is an omnipotent God in the universe, He must surly have these matters in hand. Are you trying to second guess Him? There is nothing like convincing others to reinforce one’s own belief system. There is strength in numbers.

Thank you etudiant for choosing this post to respond to, it certainly warranted a response, and I hope it receives many responses from members from the entire community at BT, regardless of differences in belief, or faith, or religion.

Every once in a while a post will make the hair stand up on my neck, and give me a creepy feeling on my skin, stahrwe's statement does this for me, and I believe in my heart, I am not alone with this feeling.

stahrwe wrote:

While the sad fact is that she is condemned, the believers are not watching the torment.

I try to have confidence in people, but maybe I am ignorant and naïve. I want to believe that the vast majority of PEOPLE do not agree with the above quote. It is devoid of the qualities and values that I sincerely believe most people do possess. Maybe I’m just lucky, and have found a life on this Earth where I am surrounded with people who strive to possess values I hold dear. Those values include, love, sympathy, empathy, tolerance, and forgiveness.

It is difficult to understand why some Christians do not believe in evolution, however, believing that an innocent child, who was tortured and murdered on Earth, is now spending eternity in a lake of boiling water is beyond all comprehension. “She is condemned, but believers are not watching”. Accepting this statement, as truthful, without question shows gross elitism. It shows selectiveness, and bigotry, and cruelty and hate!

I now have a visual of people in white, listening to harps, floating on clouds, eating ambrosia, all the while sniggering about the torture of innocent people. It suggests to me, that those in “heaven”, without “watching” receive satisfaction somehow from the suffering of those in “hell”. This leads me to the conclusion, that believers here on Earth, get satisfaction from the sufferings of people here on Earth. You do not need to watch torment to sympathize or feel sadness for those suffering. What you need, is the capacity for these feelings, which is now very evident, starwre, you do not possess.

Please starwre, do not forget your statement. I promise you, others will not. While the sad fact is that she [Anne Frank] is condemned, the believers are not watching the torment.I do hope many members see your post and respond. And I will give you a personal promise, that the next time you post that your god is loving and compassionate and forgiving, that you yourself believe in acts of charity, and possess the values of love or sympathy, I promise, nothing will give me more satisfaction than to shove this statement in your face.

Etudiant, Suzanne,

May I just say that your posts are among the most thoughtful and eloquent I have seen in a message group. Kudos.

But understand this: the doctrine of all non Christians going to hell has been a fundamental precept of Christianity since the 6th century.

Prior to that the concept called Universal Reconciliation, salavation for everyone through God's mercy regardless of their belief or lack thereof, was the predominent opinon of the early church fathers.

There has been a modern resurgence of Universalism, but it is considered heretical by the majority of Christians. The majority prefer the exclusivity, the intolerance and yes, the belief in eternal torture for those who don't "non-think" like they do... even for children. Such is the goodness and mercy of their supposed diety and embraced by it's
devoted and kind adherents.

And they want us to all think like that.

Invariably they'll argue that God gave the damned free will to chose belief or not. Naturally, they ignore the fact that true free will, a truly free choice, is unencumbered by a threat of punishment for the choice not preferred by the person / thing offering it.

It's the most hideous, most obscene of all religious doctrines, IMO, and the most antithetical to a reliigon that calls its figure head "the Prince of Peace."
To co-opt an old saying: Truly, their god must be dead if he allows people who think like that to live.

Bart
aka Dromedary Hump
http://atheistcamel.blogspot.com/

The Free 'Thinkers and atheists have managed to create a safe world for themselves. You dismiss the Bible because atheists and free thinkers for several hundred years have told you can. You say women are neglected or ignored by the Bible but when I point of over a dozen stories of strong women you totally ignore that or claim that some of the stories are patterned after some river drying up. The beauty of this is that once you render the Bible irrelevant, you can dismiss me as heartless. Sleep well in the knowledge that I, Stahrwe am condemning Anne to eternal misery.

One of you asked, "Are you God?" No, but I know what God's Word says, and His Son Jesus was more innocent than Anne Frank was. I hope she had a chance to meet someone who shared Christ with her. I hope she is in heaven now.

BTW she died of typhus, she was not gassed. Not that that is a better way to die, but at least she did not have her modesty abused at the time of her death.

The Free 'Thinkers and atheists have managed to create a safe world for themselves. You dismiss the Bible because atheists and free thinkers for several hundred years have told you can.

No, Stahrwe. They dismiss the Bible and your interpretation of it because they do not think it has validity. Again, I ask, why are you not ok with that.

You say women are neglected or ignored by the Bible but when I point of over a dozen stories of strong women you totally ignore that or claim that some of the stories are patterned after some river drying up.

I do not think you really understand oppression. Oppression says nothing about the oppressed. People who are oppressed are strong because they have to be. I work with abuse survivors who oftentimes feel weak because society always tells them they are weak. The reality is that they are incredibly strong. They have to be to survive abuse. There are strong women in the Bible. That does not mean there is not also oppression of women in the Bible. I think that it is important to acknowledge the reality of the text. If we don’t we can never change our current society or acknowledge how much those ancient ideas have affected our relationships today.

The beauty of this is that once you render the Bible irrelevant, you can dismiss me as heartless. Sleep well in the knowledge that I, Stahrwe is condemning Anne to eternal misery.

Yes. You are condemning her to eternal misery. Your religious interpretation is abusive.

Stahrwe:

Are you a Born Again Christian?

stahrwe wrote:The Free 'Thinkers and atheists have managed to create a safe world for themselves. You dismiss the Bible because atheists and free thinkers for several hundred years have told you can.

I don't dismiss the Bible, I take it for what it is. A number of different books of myth written thousands of years ago by a variety of fallible human beings. The various books were not written in concert or in succession or with an intention of being put together in one large volume. At various points different groups of people decided which books to include and which to omit. The culmination of these uncoordinated efforts became known as the Bible.

I do dismiss your assertions that the Bible is the literal word of god. Not because atheists and freethinkers have told me I can, but because after much study and analysis (critical thinking) I came to the logical conclusion that the book is a compendium of mythical stories.

stahrwe wrote:You say women are neglected or ignored by the Bible but when I point of over a dozen stories of strong women you totally ignore that or claim that some of the stories are patterned after some river drying up. The beauty of this is that once you render the Bible irrelevant, you can dismiss me as heartless. Sleep well in the knowledge that I, Stahrwe is condemning Anne to eternal misery.

One of you asked, "Are you God?" No, but I know what God's Word says, and His Son Jesus was more innocent than Anne Frank was. I hope she had a chance to meet someone who shared Chrits with her. I hope she is in heaven now.

Seespot has verbalized it better than I can. Your interpretation is that unless by some chance that child accepted Christ as her lord and savior (blah blah blah), she is condemned to hell. You believe this because that is what the god that you believe in does. You can try to divert our attention ("I hope she had the chance..."), but the bottom line is that you believe that your god has condemned untold millions of innocent children to hell for the mere fact that they believed in a different god or gods, or they believed in no god, or they died before they could even fully comprehend who mommy and daddy were much less who a god is.

stahrwe wrote:BTW she died of typhus, she was not gassed. Not that that is a better way to die, but at least she did not have her modesty abused at the time of her death.

She didn't have her modesty abused at the time of her death??? Are you kidding me? This was a child! She was murdered by typhus just as dead as thousands of others were murdered in the gas chambers. Her modesty, her dignity, her freedom, her life were abused in ways beyond your worse nightmares. The fact that she found the strength inside of her and in the love of her family to fight against that abuse in no way lessens the fact of her suffering.

I hear the advice of others on this board that it might be best if we ignore you, that we not let you engage us in this insanity. Perhaps they are correct. Most likely they are and hopefully soon I will become numb enough to your pathological delusions to be able to do that. But I hope tomorrow as you leave your loving home to drive in your comfortable car to your beautiful church, that you ponder the indignity served to that little girl in her life and the torture that you believe she is suffering right now in hell. Think about how it is only by chance of fate that you weren't born into those same circumstances, to be raised as a Jew, to be taken prisoner, to be tortured and die and then be tortured eternally in hell only because you believed the faith that you were taught by your parents. Think about that. Pray about that as you sit in your air conditioned church.

BTW she died of typhus, she was not gassed. Not that that is a better way to die, but at least she did not have her modesty abused at the time of her death.

To booktalk.org members:

I have been active in chat rooms, message groups and blogs for about 9 years. I have witnesses some truly silly, stupid, scarey and utterly crazy comments from those who claim Christianity as their belief.

But I will declare here and now, without reservation that the above quote, when coupled with the defense of an indefensibly cruel doctrine, is the most dispicable display if insensitivity, the most grotesque example of twisted thinking, the most hideous lack of a basic sense of human empathy that I ever seen proffered by anyone.

And what makes it doubley dispicable, is the person who wrote that statement and defends that doctrine is incapable of understanding this.

I am grateful that Chris has that rolling menu on the side that tells you who posted last to any discussion thread. This at least permits one to avoid reading complete postings from those who warrant zero attention, and who's postings, in any normal person's parlance, are obscene in their irrationallity.

Bart
aka Dromedary Hump