The actual original author of the letter is apparently in question. And I'm sure I already know what the apologetic response will be..."Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination … End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan.
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia
(It would be a damn shame if we couldn’t own a Canadian)
http://www.alanlawrencesitomer.com/tag/ ... hlesinger/
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The morality of the Bible?
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tat tvam asi
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The morality of the Bible?
Last edited by tat tvam asi on Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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johnson1010
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
You can find some similar discussion along these lines here:
http://www.booktalk.org/questions-for-god-t8158.html
where i posted some of my own questions for God. Stahrwe didn't like it.
http://www.booktalk.org/questions-for-god-t8158.html
where i posted some of my own questions for God. Stahrwe didn't like it.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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stahrwe
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
This is another Tat attempt to divert discussion from the issues of MP and the other failures. We addressed most of this in prior discussions a year ago. I am happy to revisit the whole discussion as it will provide a forum in which we will be able to have a substanative discuss instead of chasing the smoke and mirrors of Massey and Murdock.
Perhaps the first instance of slavery we encounter in the Bible is that of Joseph. He was sold into slavery by his brothers. That story comprises a significant portion of the book of Genesis. Though it turned out well for Joseph it began a sequence of events which resulted in the entire nation of Israel becoming slaves.
Why do you suppose that was allowed to happen?
Perhaps the first instance of slavery we encounter in the Bible is that of Joseph. He was sold into slavery by his brothers. That story comprises a significant portion of the book of Genesis. Though it turned out well for Joseph it began a sequence of events which resulted in the entire nation of Israel becoming slaves.
Why do you suppose that was allowed to happen?
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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stahrwe
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
Tat cross posted this here and in Will Atheism Replace Religion. Rather than aggravate the problem, I have posted rebuttals to the letter in that discussion.tat tvam asi wrote:The actual original author of the letter is apparently in question."Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination … End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan.
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia
(It would be a damn shame if we couldn’t own a Canadian)
http://www.alanlawrencesitomer.com/tag/ ... hlesinger/
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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tat tvam asi
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
Stahrwe, you're a twisted mind indeed. Did Chris specifically tell us to start new threads of discussion around these book talk forums or not? He did as a matter of fact and it was his closing post on the YEC thread before locking it down. He even said that he doesn't care if it's the same topic or not. And there are several YEC threads around now in different forums. There are several Jesus myth threads as well. And likewise there are several threads about the morality of the bible.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of the MP. You've been exposed of intellectual dishonesty several times over already and you refuse to read the book which officially outlines the MP. I'll continue to address the MP on the MP thread by the way, not this thread of sarcasm aimed at biblical morality.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of the MP. You've been exposed of intellectual dishonesty several times over already and you refuse to read the book which officially outlines the MP. I'll continue to address the MP on the MP thread by the way, not this thread of sarcasm aimed at biblical morality.
Last edited by tat tvam asi on Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stahrwe
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
tat tvam asi wrote:Stahrwe, you're a twisted mind indeed. Did Chris specifically tell us to start new threads of discussion around these book talk forums or not? He did as a matter of fact and it was his closing post on the YEC thread before locking it down. He even said that he doesn't care if it's the same topic or not. And there are several YEC threads around now in different forums. There are several Jesus myth threads as well. And likewise there are several threads about the morality of the bible.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of the MP. You've been exposed of intellectual dishonesty several times over already and you refuse to read the book which officially outlines the MP. I'll continue to address the MP on the MP thread by the way, not this thread of sarcasm aimed at biblical morality.
Chris did tell us to start new discussions but that doesn't mean cloning the same post. In fact, Rule #5 States that there is to be no cross posting. Additionally, I believe that Chris was referring to branching and sequencing to keep a discussion from becoming too large. Branching is to move off a trunk discussion to other topics related from a base. Sequencing is move of a continuing discussion but end volume 1 and start volume 2. Basically the same discussion but keeping the size manageable. The idea of similar discussions should be avoided in my opinion. It becomes unwieldy.
As far as sarcasm goes, one must be careful to be accurate in what one is lampooning. The risk is that if one is ignorant of the basic facts, the joke backfires and exposes the author. Under that circumstance there is only one excuse the author can fall back on.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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Robert Tulip
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
This letter about Leviticus has been around for a long time. I saw it about a decade ago. (eta - note on source)
The main point is that Christians often state their opposition to homosexuality is based on the statement in Leviticus that homosexuality is an abomination, but then ignore all the other things that Leviticus says are abominable, just because our contemporary morality has moved on. It is inconsistent for Christians to say their moral views come from the Bible when there are moral teachings in the Bible that they disagree with. It is obvious their morals come from another source, ie their own judgment and culture, and they are just using the Bible when it suits them to claim their judgment is divinely inspired.
The Ten Commandments illustrate the problem, especially with the view of women as owned by men. But also, the command of 'no other Gods before me' has been a source of much destruction and bigotry. It is ambiguous who the 'me' referred to is here, between the tribal deity of Israel and the creator of the universe. Church politicians tend to the 'tribal deity' interpretation of 'my way or the highway', claiming exclusive right and power to explain the nature of God.
Assessing the morality of the Bible is very complex. There is enormous difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, with the shift from the law of Moses of 'an eye for an eye' to the law of Christ of forgiveness for repentance. This change is expressed by Paul in Romans 6:14 in terms of the shift from the rule of law to the rule of grace. I interpret it as Moses providing a morality for the Age of Aries and Jesus providing a morality for the Age of Pisces. What the world needs now is a morality for the Age of Aquarius.
The morality of Jesus is equally problematic, especially around 'turn the other cheek' which seems a recipe for insipid submission. Texts such as the Beatitudes point to a new morality that can inform a global new age. The morality of Jesus seems impractical as counsel on how to deal with what Paul called the powers and principalities of the present darkness, except as part of the armour of God. My view is that the morality of the Beatitudes expresses a deep vision of how people will think and behave in a future world in harmony with God. It shows how the dross of Leviticus can be discarded through an effort to discern the meaningful ethical teachings in the Bible that are still relevant today.
The main point is that Christians often state their opposition to homosexuality is based on the statement in Leviticus that homosexuality is an abomination, but then ignore all the other things that Leviticus says are abominable, just because our contemporary morality has moved on. It is inconsistent for Christians to say their moral views come from the Bible when there are moral teachings in the Bible that they disagree with. It is obvious their morals come from another source, ie their own judgment and culture, and they are just using the Bible when it suits them to claim their judgment is divinely inspired.
The Ten Commandments illustrate the problem, especially with the view of women as owned by men. But also, the command of 'no other Gods before me' has been a source of much destruction and bigotry. It is ambiguous who the 'me' referred to is here, between the tribal deity of Israel and the creator of the universe. Church politicians tend to the 'tribal deity' interpretation of 'my way or the highway', claiming exclusive right and power to explain the nature of God.
Assessing the morality of the Bible is very complex. There is enormous difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, with the shift from the law of Moses of 'an eye for an eye' to the law of Christ of forgiveness for repentance. This change is expressed by Paul in Romans 6:14 in terms of the shift from the rule of law to the rule of grace. I interpret it as Moses providing a morality for the Age of Aries and Jesus providing a morality for the Age of Pisces. What the world needs now is a morality for the Age of Aquarius.
The morality of Jesus is equally problematic, especially around 'turn the other cheek' which seems a recipe for insipid submission. Texts such as the Beatitudes point to a new morality that can inform a global new age. The morality of Jesus seems impractical as counsel on how to deal with what Paul called the powers and principalities of the present darkness, except as part of the armour of God. My view is that the morality of the Beatitudes expresses a deep vision of how people will think and behave in a future world in harmony with God. It shows how the dross of Leviticus can be discarded through an effort to discern the meaningful ethical teachings in the Bible that are still relevant today.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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President Camacho
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
Last sentence sums up my feelings perfectly. It's just a social code from generations past. That's all. Take what's applicable and archive the rest.
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Re: The morality of the Bible?
From http://www.booktalk.org/will-atheism-re ... l?start=15
On the eyesight example, I breathed a sigh of relief when I found that indeed there is wiggle-room for blind people. It would hardly do to have the Bible promoting efforts to shun those who don't measure up to social norms!
I look forward to hearing what Dr Laura thinks is a fair price if I sell my daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21.
stahrwe wrote:Let's start with Lev 21:20. It's typical that the author of the alleged letter to Dr. Laura failed to read the verse. The actual reference is to a blemish of the eye and it must be visible to others. Poor eyesight is not an issue. That's 1.
stahrwe wrote:Well, you might want to check those 'facts' I already pointed out an error in the letter and there are more to come. Will you edit and repost the letter as the errors are explained?
stahrwe wrote:Unless you are in Jerusalem, at the place currently occupied by the Dome of the Rock you should not be sacrificing, therefore I must conclude that it is not a religious observance they are objecting to but your skills at backyard BBQ. In this case, I suggest that you watch The Food Network or give up and cook indoors. that's 2 Oh, and by the way, to sacrifice you must be a descendant of the tribe of Levi. I doubt you are but I will only charge you with one strike for this.From the letter posted by Tat: "4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Thank you so much Dr Laura for providing these clear and simple explanations of the relevance of bronze age morality to the modern world. Just homing in on the key moral question here, I disagree with your claim that footballs are not made of pig skin. We often refer to footballs as pig skin so it must be true. If you are right, and footballs actually use some other leather, or even synthetic, it provides a decisive rebuttal for those who wrongly see inconsistencies in the Bible. As Dr Laura has so patiently condescended to explain, the Bible is the totally consistent and inerrant Word of God. It would not do to have Jesus playing quarterback with a football made of pig.stahrwe wrote:Unless you are Jewish this is not a problem. Additionally footballs have not been made of actual pigs for decades. That's 3From the letter Tat posted: "9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?"
On the eyesight example, I breathed a sigh of relief when I found that indeed there is wiggle-room for blind people. It would hardly do to have the Bible promoting efforts to shun those who don't measure up to social norms!
I look forward to hearing what Dr Laura thinks is a fair price if I sell my daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew slave, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the slave shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed
