Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

[CWT36]

It comes from our belief that the world would be a better place with more rationality and less superstition

That is arrogant presumption.

How has religion made the world a "better place"?

Did you really mean to ask me how religion has made the world a better place or did you mean to ask how rationality has made the world a better place?

[lady of shallot]

T
At one point or another, most of the average "Christians" I know have offhandedly referred to atheists as less than human. .

This was certainly my experience recently while at the home of a non-fundamentalist but main stream Christian sect family. A discussion was taking place about the disposition of a creche and the desire of the giver of such an heirloom possession that it go to the home of someone who wasn't a "heathen" as it appears some of the relatives (me being one of them) are! I had thought a "heathen" besides being a member of some other than the religious belief of the speaker is also a member non-civilized or what we would call a primitive society.

[ant]

CWT36, you son of a bitch! Where have you been?

Missed you around here, guy!

How has religion made the world a "better place"?

Ant, was that a mis-type?

The "average" Christian that I know has no hostility toward atheism

You know what might be interesting for theists out there? Atheism, unlike other groups, really has no defining outward characteristic. No mode of dress, no accents, no skin color, no set of behaviors define us. As such, any theist out there can claim to be an atheist when introducing themselves to somebody, if the subject ever comes up. (most people i have known for years don't know i'm an atheist. It just doesn't come up often.)

If you get the chance, give it a try. Say you are an atheist and see the re-evaluation from the people you tell.

Nobody has ever tried to chase me out of town with a pitch fork, but i have certainly got some distasteful looks from people. And on a number of occasions, people will then go on to tell me what it is that I, as an atheist, ought to believe according to them.

It's like this:

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/art ... 70723.html

As always, Jon Stewart hits the nail on the head.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-d ... abulvision

Anyone heard about that?

It's the same with atheists, except we don't wear head scarfs.

Im replying on my IPhone so it's a bit difficult.
Let's consider some historical facts related to contributions by the church

http://www.deseretnews.com/m/article/700210479

[Interbane]

The "average" Christian that I know has no hostility toward atheism

I'm happy to hear that. I wish it were true of all average Christians. To some, they simply haven't given the topic much thought. It's taken for granted, or perhaps on faith, that atheism is sinful and evil. Most instances I've experienced this, it's been an offhanded comment; sitting in my office with a few others and some news topic about an atheist comes up, and negative comments pop out. Atheism should be illegal, atheists should be rounded up and shipped to a distant island, atheists should be put in a mandatory church service prison(that one made me laugh).

Let's consider some historical facts related to contributions by the church

In disambiguating the motives, "the church" is not synonymous with "superstition". The charity of faithful is a great thing. I admire the relentless altruistic drive of my boss, who is a fundamentalist. He is also a person who has nothing against atheists. If all fundamentalists were the same as my boss, the world would be a great place.

Superstitious thinking is a component of religion, and does not accurately reflect the way the world works. Fear of weird people mixed with superstitious thinking resulted in witch hunts and inquisitions, not to mention modern hostility towards atheism and science. It's detrimental to society.

[CWT36]

Im replying on my IPhone so it's a bit difficult.
Let's consider some historical facts related to contributions by the church

http://www.deseretnews.com/m/article/700210479

I don't dispute the fact that religious people have done good things, just as I don't dispute the fact that atheists have done bad things. But I would point out that the items listed in this article aren't products of religion. Scientific (and social and economic) advances can be made by Catholics or Muslims or Atheists or devil worshipers.

The superstition of Christianity (miracles, afterlife, second coming, virgin birth) does not foster advancement of society. The superstition of the Catholic church (contraception, aids, pedophelia, gay rights)nhas been a detriment to the advancement of society.

[Interbane]

We said the same thing using different word Colin, but I think you used better words. Great to see you poke your head in!

[johnson1010]

Agreed.

Certainly much of early science was performed by theists. For much of history, if you didn't want to be stoned to death, burnt at the stake, or lynched, then theist was all that you COULD be. At least in public.

But as i have said before, their ability to make headway in science is only successful in as far as they proceed scientifically, not religiously.

You cannot gain any knowledge of a waveform by praying about it. Nor can anyone invent a telescope by appealing to a god. Nor could anyone discover the laws of thermodynamics through faith.

Thermodynamics, here chosen specifically because it was the product of a professed theist, but only resulting from adherence to the demands of science that positive claims be backed by evidence, be repeatable, falsifiable, and that there be a way to determine which changes would be improvements, all of which not relying, in any way, on a religious point of view or opinion.

and that continues to be the case today. Advances in science are only made when the scientific method is employed. You have to recognize that evidence is more important than your opinion of the evidence before real challenges to belief can take root.

That's the same of beliefs in religion, metaphysics, or even racism. Belief gives way to knowledge when evidence is accepted.

And while it is true that many people are generous, and being a religious person does not inhibit generosity, it was not religion which cured polio, or created and refined agriculture, or CPR, or roads, or telecomunications.

What good is rationality? Everything which distinguishes modern humans from savages that live under the blaring sky, scavenging for what can be found at their feet.

[ant]

Superstitious thinking is a component of religion, and does not accurately reflect the way the world works. Fear of weird people mixed with superstitious thinking resulted in witch hunts and inquisitions, not to mention modern hostility towards atheism and science. It's detrimental to society.

Hi Interbane. I've been running around like crazy these last few days of 2011.

Superstitious thinking is a component of literalist fundamentalists and NOT the intellectual theological community.
Neo Darwinists and Religious fundamentalists are both detrimental to society. Both have one thing in common - they are fundamentalists with myopic views that discourage civil discourse between the two. What both lack is a sense of humility for the complexity of nature (creation) and man's place in it.

From a historical context, one learns that although there has been tension between theology and science, both have "grown up together" and have learned from each. It's common knowledge of students of history that not only has there been differing opinions between the two, there also and continues to be differences WITHIN each.

Both sides have a thirst for universal truth.
Both the scientific and theological intellectual community apply logical means to arrive at theoretical conclusions, open to further examination by successors.

It's unfortunate that simplistic conclusions are deduced by common folk who get their information from news bites circulating inflammatory events:

1) Islamic Extremists bombed a US Embassy - ALL muslims want to eradicate us.

2) Billboards denouncing atheism are sprinkled around certain areas - ALL christians consider atheists evil

3) Neo Darwinists ridicule people who believe in divine providence - ALL scientists do not believe in a divine creator.

Scientific materialists and religious fundamentalists DO NOT have authority to speak for all scientists and all people of religion.


The average person is ignorant of a theological body like the International Theological Commission and its purpose. It's not likely that current news would report on publications from the ITC. It's something that would be too dry and not very cordial for the public at large.

The public wants sensational entertainment fed to them. It's is easy to digest and therein lies the origin of the oversimplification that exists here.
The ITC accepts current scientific explanations that seek to explain secondary causation.
The ITC believes that science can only explain secondary causation, not primary causation. It believes in divine guidance as PRIMARY CAUSATION.
It is beyond the scope of science to profess the non-existence of an intelligence governing primary causation without a method to deduce it by scientific means. To conclude 'There is no god, it's all randomness" is arrogant presumption about the complexity of nature.

[ant]

Certainly much of early science was performed by theists. For much of history, if you didn't want to be stoned to death, burnt at the stake, or lynched, then theist was all that you COULD be. At least in public.

Point me to a historical source that backs that claim.
Start with Galileo. What record do we have that backs your claim that men like this professed faith only because they didn't want to be stoned to death.

I'm betting you can't

[CWT36]

Certainly much of early science was performed by theists. For much of history, if you didn't want to be stoned to death, burnt at the stake, or lynched, then theist was all that you COULD be. At least in public.

Point me to a historical source that backs that claim.
Start with Galileo. What record do we have that backs your claim that men like this professed faith only because they didn't want to be stoned to death.

I'm betting you can't

And Ant throws down the gauntlet!!