How did you stop believing?

[lady of shallot]

Per Johnson’s request for us to return to the original theme, here’s my “How did you stop believing?” story:


My youthful disillusionment was further exacerbated by the fact that I had a good pair of ears and used to mingle with the adults before and after church, listening to their conversations. I was surprised to find that these conversations were not about God or Jesus or religion; they were mostly about business or gossip, and many comments weren’t at all what I considered Christ-like.

”

I hope Johnson will forgive me for once again seeming to veer off the topic but something just happened that is a rather more extreme example of what R. LeBeaux says above.

Today is the 6 anniversary of my nephews suicide. His Mother, my sister, and her other children are religious, in that they believe in God etc. yet once again my sister (who in my opinion was neglectful of her son) has entered a memorial notice in the paper in my nephews small town. This notice markedly does not include my nephews wife or his children. My sister, nor none of her other children, have ever lived in this town or even in the state. It seems to me that this notice is an attempt to "stick it" to the widow. Something I consider very unchristian. Or even kind.

It is interesting what R. LeBeaux says about nature and the change of seasons. I have always lived in the north east and so see very extreme changes of season. It would have no impact on the way I view religion but it is interesting what different influences we have on our belief systems.

What I am most awe struck by are the pictures from the Hubble telescope and learning about astronomy

[Penelope]

Rageeth:

Before, in her prayer she tried calling to God however, she couldn't see God. So, from then on she never believed in God.

Sometimes, we just have to sit in the presence and let the peace enfold us. Sometimes, we don't talk, just listen. Even the Bible, which is very confusing.....says 'God is a Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth' - not a person, not a 'being' - we can't see...we can only feel.

[lady of shallot]

Penny said:

"Sometimes, we just have to sit in the presence and let the peace enfold us."

what presence? Maybe you mean like a time out, when parents are trying to calm down an unruly child.

[Penelope]

L of S

Today is the 6 anniversary of my nephews suicide. His Mother, my sister, and her other children are religious, in that they believe in God etc. yet once again my sister (who in my opinion was neglectful of her son) has entered a memorial notice in the paper in my nephews small town. This notice markedly does not include my nephews wife or his children. My sister, nor none of her other children, have ever lived in this town or even in the state. It seems to me that this notice is an attempt to "stick it" to the widow. Something I consider very unchristian. Or even kind.

I am so sorry LofS!! Sometimes people uphold their denomination - rather than uphold the truth.

This is a Buddhist quote:

Nay, and of hearts which follow other Gods in simpler faith, their prayers arise to me, Oh, Son of Man! though they pray wrongfully; for I am the Receiver and the Lord of every sacrifice.

[Penelope]

LofS

what presence? Maybe you mean like a time out, when parents are trying to calm down an unruly child.

Yes, exactly.

There are far, far better people than I who have felt the need to just sit...in the presence. There is a stillness...and it is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist.....Godly people.....who have no words to describe. It just is.

[R. LeBeaux]

It is interesting what R. LeBeaux says about nature and the change of seasons. I have always lived in the north east and so see very extreme changes of season. It would have no impact on the way I view religion but it is interesting what different influences we have on our belief systems.

Forgive me if it is inappropriate to post poetry here, but after I mentioned my time in north Georgia, I remembered a poem I wrote back then that pretty well summed up the "religious" revelations I had while experiencing seasons for the first time. And once I located it and read it again, I thought it was fairly on target for the topic:

Parable

I never thought I’d see the face of God before I die
I never thought I’d find Him in the country
I spent a lot of prayer asking how much instead of why
And wondering what it really means to be free

But I saw Him in the autumn and I saw Him in the spring
And in the summer sun against my window
I saw Him painting flowers and I saw Him taking wing
And I heard Him in the winter make the wind blow

Springtime came so softly, like a whisper in my ear
And all the world was waking up around me
The morning frost had turned to dew, the snow had disappeared
The waking flowers smiling up to greet me

I heard the sound of footsteps on the fragrant summer breeze
I heard the sound of tears in summer showers
A thousand wild imaginings were singing in the trees
And as I strolled in silence through the flowers

I saw Him walking slowly in the warming summer sun
Chipmunks playing games upon His shoulders
Leaving stalks of goldenrod to sway in unison
And growing very slowly one year older

The autumn’s changing colors in the evening of the year
The sleepy forest waits for night to fall
As petals close and oak leaves fold and winter time grows near
The artist paints in brilliant hues on green cathedral walls

Soon the swirling dewdrops turn to alabaster tears
And clinging like a blanket to the hillside
Secure and warm the flowers sleep to wake another year
And as I sat in silence by their bedside

I saw Him put the earth to rest with one sweep of His hand
I saw the great Mandela at His side
And as the scene unfolded I began to understand
That all the world would soon be purified

And though my God cannot be found in prose of ages past
And though my chapel has no colored windows
His presence is as clear to me as dewdrops on the grass
And all my fears are stilled each time the wind blows

[lady of shallot]

"I am so sorry LofS!! Sometimes people uphold their denomination - rather than uphold the truth."

How I would say this is that religion is not concerned with the truth. Just another way of saying what you have said above, Penny.

I'm afraid that I am deeply un spiritual.

"There are far, far better people than I who have felt the need to just sit...in the presence. There is a stillness...and it is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist.....Godly people.....who have no words to describe. It just is."

This may be true for some people but why say they are "far far better" people? that is a judgment. Comparing one person to another. Am I valueless because I feel no, not only belief system but spirituality at all?

I always am surprised when an obituary speaks glowingly of a person's faith or belief system. Why should that matter to me or to the world at large?

[Penelope]

I always am surprised when an obituary speaks glowingly of a person's faith or belief system. Why should that matter to me or to the world at large?

This may be true for some people but why say they are "far far better" people? that is a judgment. Comparing one person to another. Am I valueless because I feel no, not only b elief system but spirituality at all?

I was thinking about Gandhi and people like Mandella. Far, far better is not a politically correct way of speaking. But people who have benefitted mankind by demonstrating something great about humans. I think Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins are great atheists. Oh, who am I to judge, but I do just admire some human beings for their ability to influence other humans for the better. And Richard Dawkins is very, very good at his job, which is to bring science to the ordinary folk. Many of these people like to sit and think. Sometimes they just sit. A church is a good place to do this....some people feel. With me it just helps me to unwind myself. I don't seem to be able to avoid annoying you, sorry. Not intentional.

[Robert Tulip]

religion is not concerned with the truth.

By definition, religion is concerned with the truth. Religion seeks to provide believers with a credible explanation of reality, the truth to live by. Religion means 're-binding', or connecting the believer to an ultimate truth.

Truth features as a main theme in the Bible. Christ says he has come into the world to bear witness to truth, and that the truth will set you free.

The contemporary crisis of religion arises from the extreme disconnect between dominant dogmas and actual truth. Churches are more concerned to retain continuity with their past than to be honest. As a result they propound many claims that are demonstrably false. Such hypocrisy is unsustainable.

[DWill]

The Lady's statement is true in certain respects. No religion aims to tell us the truth about the non-existence of life beyond biological life. All, in some way, encourage the wish-fulfilling belief that life can exist without live bodies. And while all religions might be concerned with the best way to live, truth is not the main vehicle for attaining this way except for in the monotheistic religions. Christianity in particular, the great religion with the heaviest emphasis on doctrine, puts truth at the top. But it is hardly typical.