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Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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Re: Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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President Camacho wrote:"We have reached the Meeting of the Waters, the point at which the two great rivers of our cultural patrimony—the Greco-Roman and the Judeo-Christian—flow into each other to become the mighty torrent of Western civilization."

This isn't right. The sentence makes it seem like their was a mutual and voluntary blending when there really wasn't.
I think it's an apt metaphor from our Western perspective looking back through time. A stream runs into another stream to make a river, etc. But there is always danger in quoting out of context. Here's the rest of that paragraph:
We have reached the Meeting of the Waters, the point at which the two great rivers of our cultural patrimony—the Greco-Roman and the Judeo-Christian—flow into each other to become the mighty torrent of Western civilization. It is an irony of our cultural history that the plodding Romans became the channel through which all the delicacies and distinctions of Greek culture flowed into the West. It is no less ironic that, given its subsequent history of Jew-hatred, Christianity should become the vehicle by which Jewish values entered the mainstream. But such and so are the case.
I'm thinking of Wright's line that a successful conqueror is a theologically-flexible conqueror. And, the Romans, at least were that. Thanks, DWill, for that word, "snycretism." That enables me to look it up in the index of Wright's book:

"The melding of religious concepts or beliefs—"syncretism"—is a common way to forge cultural unity in the wake of conquest, and often, as here, what gets melded is the gods themselves. (TEOG, pg. 85).

A good example of syncretism, of course, is how the Romans absorbed the Greek pantheon, some of their gods' names being grafted onto their more multi-dimensional Greek counterparts.

Cahill argues that Christian monasticism was greatly influenced by the Pythagoreans and, later, the Platonists, who lived in communities, renouncing the normal life. And before that, the Pythagoreans and Platonists were influenced by the Indian Budhists and their predecessors. So Cahill is no Christian apologist; he takes a scholarly and historical approach, while his writing is accessible to the layperson.

In this last section, Cahill takes a broad overview, a step back to see the meeting of the waters. He discusses the mystery religions and then the arrival of the Romans, who he doesn't discuss in a very flattering way. But he makes it very clear that the Greeks are one of the largest tributaries.

"Many aspects of this immense confluence are dealt with in earlier books in this series. The seminal Jewish contributions to our common Western history—without which nothing else could have happened—is the subject of Vol. II, The Gifts of the Jews. The contribution of early Christianity and its dependence on ancient Judaism are the subjects of Vol. III, Desire of the Everlasting Hills. Nor have the Romans been neglected. Even if they don't have a volume of their own, they are the subject of the first two chapters of the introductory Vol. I, How the Irish Saved Civilization, and they form an important strand throughout Desire of the Everlasting Hills.

. . .

I've gone ahead and ordered How the Irish Saved Civilization from abebooks. It sounds quite good as well.
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Re: Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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"We have reached the Meeting of the Waters, the point at which the two great rivers of our cultural patrimony—the Greco-Roman and the Judeo-Christian—flow into each other to become the mighty torrent of Western civilization. It is an irony of our cultural history that the plodding Romans became the channel through which all the delicacies and distinctions of Greek culture flowed into the West. It is no less ironic that, given its subsequent history of Jew-hatred, Christianity should become the vehicle by which Jewish values entered the mainstream. But such and so are the case."

Look at all dominating western and near eastern religions. They were all born in the same region. The path this man sets his readers on is incorrect, from these sentences. There was no great Judeo-Christian river, happy mingling, inevitable happy-time, success. There was no great Judaic or Christain rivers at all. These were wretched little outsider faiths that were trying to gain a hold on Rome. Both buying, competing, warring, subverting, converting Rome's leaders and populous for a piece of GOLD.

Judaism is unique in that it has remained... like a herpes virus. It's a loser but they're just not going to go away as christianity and islam have both recognized it as legitimate!!!

The Roman citizens as well as the Franks and Celts were all compelled by the sword to convert. Constantine brought it. Islam brought its own blend. That's why they're the predominate religions. Not because of peace but because of war. There was no cultural mingling. There was only cultural baptism - a plunge by someone else's hand.... YOU MUST DRINK!

So, drink up. This isn't a happy story.

Look, first Rome raped Greek and Ionia, and whored out Egypt. It had its own Pagan religions that still dominate today with all the "saints". Rivers my ass.
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Re: Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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Do you know there are people that can trace their descendents to the Greeks that are being persecuted in "Persia" today. Yesterday we would have deliberated sending armies to protect them. Today we protect, not kin, but people who believe in our faith system. Weird to me, as family should be the first unit, not government or ideology.

There is my line of definition as a person.
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Re: Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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Rome imported HEAVILY from Greece - they raped her - stole statues... you name it. That's why I said rape. When it came to religion, though, it was from the top-down.

Rome imported Greek culture because the whole populous saw that their culture was superior. They wanted it and they TOOK it. It was a benefit of their power. They sent their kids there and to the Ionia to become educated in rhetoric.

The culture of Greece was so controversial in Rome because mingling such a conquered foe's culture into successful Rome's would be murder to Rome! Senators fought against Grecco influence and people were persecuted and exiled because of their Greek tendencies. People tried simultaneously to show they were learned (Greek!) and Roman at the same time.

When Rome, after she was well done, ready to fall, was passed to Constantine.... if he never accepted jebus... there would BE NO CHRISTIANITY. NONE. THERE IS NO JUDEO CHRISTIAN hoobab. Christianity and Judaism would have been extinguished by ISLAM if not for Constanine's beliefs.

Therefore, there are no "rivers". All of this is top down. It's not NATURAL. It's not democracy. It's not from people - it's from a small group.
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Re: Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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President Camacho wrote:Rome imported HEAVILY from Greece - they raped her - stole statues... you name it. That's why I said rape. When it came to religion, though, it was from the top-down.

Rome imported Greek culture because the whole populous saw that their culture was superior. They wanted it and they TOOK it. It was a benefit of their power. They sent their kids there and to the Ionia to become educated in rhetoric.

The culture of Greece was so controversial in Rome because mingling such a conquered foe's culture into successful Rome's would be murder to Rome! Senators fought against Grecco influence and people were persecuted and exiled because of their Greek tendencies. People tried simultaneously to show they were learned (Greek!) and Roman at the same time.

When Rome, after she was well done, ready to fall, was passed to Constantine.... if he never accepted jebus... there would BE NO CHRISTIANITY. NONE. THERE IS NO JUDEO CHRISTIAN hoobab. Christianity and Judaism would have been extinguished by ISLAM if not for Constanine's beliefs.

Therefore, there are no "rivers". All of this is top down. It's not NATURAL. It's not democracy. It's not from people - it's from a small group.
Christianity was probably just one of many mystery religions revolving around the obsessive-compulsive notion of a coming apocalypse—Reform now for the world is at end. And some of the ideas—memes—just stuck and evolved and got into our collective bee bonnets. And, yeah, Constantine's endorsement, certainly entirely politically motivated, was crucial to this new religion's widespread acceptance. Funny how these things work.

So, okay, not a river! A more ill-advised metaphor was never wrought! :D
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Re: Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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Wow, yeah I got carried away again.
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Re: Thomas Cahill on the Greeks

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President Camacho wrote:Wow, yeah I got carried away again.
Carried away or just your usual intensity ? We expect nothing less from you. :clap2:
-Geo
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