The infinite human

[tat tvam asi]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the prestige. I watched a few vids about explaining the prestige but they're not discussing, just reviewing several key clips and leaving it up to the viewer to connect the dots.

When the magician brought Tesla's teletransporter back and tried it out, the cloned version of himself picked up the gun and shot him. I say this because he starts yelling "No, I'm the real..." and then gets shot. If that's the case, then the clone went on to the finale and died at the end, not the original magician himself. And the clone had all of the same memories and emotions of the original magicians life such as his wife drowning and wanting to get revenge for it and so on.

Or else I have it wrong and the guy who picked up the gun after the teletransportation was the real magician and it was his clone who cried out "No, I'm the real..." before getting shot. Either way, the same consciousness inhabited both bodies and thought that it was the same person. I say that because in order to yell out that he's the real... it would require a memory of being that person. It wasn't even really a clone I guess because the teletransporter took the actual man and simply transferred everything that he is to another location leaving behind two versions of the same person with the same consciousness, memories of life, emotions, etc. So I get the impression that this is exactly what you've been talking about Johnson, the transferring of consciousness into another version of yourself equipped with all of your memories and emotions.

[johnson1010]

I don't remember which version of himself did the shooting, but it obviously was the original who brought the gun along anticipating the chance that an inconvenient duplicate of himself might end up at the end of the test, and so brought it intending to shoot "himself" version 2.

I don't remember if the clone came to and thought immediately "Gotta grab the gun and shoot myself version1 before he shoots me".

That i don't remember exactly, but yeah...

Both versions will feel conpletely convinced that they are the original person. They could be convinced, perhaps, if they were scientifically minded, by a close examination of their starting position, and where they are the next moment.

This was also explored in The 6th Day.

Anyway, though they are exactly the same person, the moment of copying makes a split, and they can no longer experience what the other is experiencing. They share memories up to the split, then they are different experiences.

The prestige is even more insane, however.

SPOILERS FOR THE PRESTIGE

DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT TO WATCH IT YOURSELF.

Spoiler

Everytime wolverine did the trick, he set the teleporter to produce the new version at the back of the room, and he himself would drop through the trap door... into a case of water where he would drown.

The new version of himself, the product of the teleporter, would then go on to continue putting on the rest of the show, then set up the act again... to once again drop to his death in the case of water and be replaced by another copy.

That's why he hired the helpers he did so they wouldn't see him drowning every night in the case.

Good movie.

[VMLM]

Actually, much of which you have written about has been used in science fiction novels, movies or television.

I'm a huge star wars fan, or was when I was a teenager. One of the first book series I read was this series by Timothy Zahn in which, basically, a functioning cloning facility is made operational in an attempt to strengthen the empire... Initially they try to make a copy of a long dead Jedi Master, but the cloning process seems to have a unstabling effect on his mind, which makes it far too dangerous to try and make more copies of jedi knights.
Which is sort of interesting because it makes you think, how does the clone see the fact that he has just been brought into being? That he is not infact himself, but a new copy of himself. Imagine waking up from a cloning procedure, which you went into because they told you it was important for corporate security reasons, and upon exiting the cloning chamber are confronted by curiously older version of your employer (you're sure the whole process couldn't have taken more than an hour, although you where "out cold" there for an amount of time you can't really quantify... yet he didn't have so much gray hair did he? He seems tired..) who proceeds to explain to you very carefully and seriously that you have just died in an industrial accident after five years of work, and are required to re-assume your current responsibilities and could you do so discretely without bringing much attention to the accident? Oh and don't screw up this time.

Actually, Cattleman you seem to be a big sci-fi fan, and there's this one book I read a long, loooong time ago, which maybe you can help me find.
A now space-faring humanity has come up against another species which has mastered space travel. They've engaged in interstellar war and seem to have reached something of a stalemate. One pilot, obviously the top pilot in the human fleet, is brought into a secret project. His consciousness is to be fused into his ship, and he will embark on a prolonged voyage (a voyage which his human body could never survive given the distance, speeds, etc.) to explore the reaches of the alien race's territory in search of their homeplanet. He is then to make observations and transmit them back to fleet command. The fact that he is fused with his ship let's him handle it in a way that would never be possible for a human pilot. He controls the ship as if it were his own body, and he moves at break-neck speeds executing impossible maneuvers that would destroy a flesh & blood body.

Johnson, I wonder if you've seen this video from PBS IdeaChannel



One thing that comes up in the comments is that you might never be able to disregard economy entirely, you still need to produce the energy for the machines. Even if you could print out the necessary fuel to generate said energy, you still need to take the necessary time to do so. Also, you're not creating matter, your converting it. So obviously you'll need an endless amount of convertible matter.
Providing said matter and energy could be considered valuable activities which others might agree to "pay" for. Of course, there being no money (or rather, money having no economic value), people would have to find different forms of payment...
Which makes me think about the Incan "mita", which was a kind of tribute paid by conquered kingdoms to the Incas.. only not in goods but in labour. They would be required to supply a number of young men which would then be moved around the empire building roads, irrigation canals terraces for agriculture, etc.
It wouldn't be far fetched to believe people would "pay" in services or technically complex creations which others might not be able to produce because they lack the necessary knowledge and skill. And if you can't make anything interesting, you'll probably end up making boring stuff that no one else wants to make. Over. And over.
What would be considered "valuable" in such a society? Probably knowledge, and time.

[Cattleman]

To VMLM: Although I have been reading science fiction since the early 1950s, I don't recognize the story you mention, even though the concept of fusing the pilot with the ship has been used in other stories. Maybe someone else can help.

On the subject of cloning, I admit to having an offbeat sense of humor, and cannot resist the following. It was written by Isaac Asimov:

Oh, give me a clone, of my own flesh and bone,
With its Y chromosome changed to X;
And when it is grown, this clone of my own,
It will be of the opposite sex.

Clone, clone of my own,
With your Y chromosome changed to X.
And when we're alone, just I and my clone,
We will think of nothing but sex.

(Asimov also loved limericks [which the above is not], the 'dirtier' the better.)

[johnson1010]

does that count as incest?

[tat tvam asi]

It would probably rank as an advanced masturbation of sorts.

[youkrst]

surely truly advanced masturbation would involve getting scarlett into the teleporter

i too watched the prestige in response to VMLM's post, chris nolan seems to be really working some thoughtful magic in his various movies.

i thought it was the original who shot the copy thus later the jackman character said "see i can pay the price that a proper magician must pay" in defence of earlier doubts raised as to his having any magicianly characteristics beyond his obvious ability in merely presentation.

fascinating stuff.

how cool was it watching bowie playing tesla

so much ground so little time.

makes me think about how we so closely associate consciousness and body whereas shankara would think that silly.

interesting where the bale and jackman characters have been sent to check out the chinaman and later after the show as they watch the chinaman pretending to be feeble as he leaves the theatre bale says something like "this is the trick" total devotion to his art, utter self sacrifice, you know it's the only way to escape all this (material, matter)

elsewhere this metaphor is pre-eminent also, where the bird must be squished in order for a bird to magically appear. it seems to be a restatement of the old "he that would truly live must die to self", paraphrased in the movie as "you've got to get your hands dirty if you want to be a real magician"

[VMLM]

johnson I just finished watching The 6th Day.
I'm impressed, that was a much better movie than I thought it would be, what with Ahnold and all.
It actually poses and gives its own answers to some of the questions we've been talking about. What would it feel like to exist besides yourself? How would you feel about discovering that you've been cloned? etc.

Now. What actually bugs me is the ending.

Spoiler

It's heartwarming to be sure, watching Ahnold becomnig his own best buddy, but while they're having their little chat, the clone mentions that he doesn't seem to have any defects, which means he'll be living a full and happy clone life...
But wait.. Drucker assures Adam that he has a congenital defect, which will assure that he dies if he doesn't cooperate.
Are we to assume that Drucker has lied to him? As evil geniuses are wont to do? Was it all just a bluff?

But why wouldn't he install this little fail safe into clone-Adam?

Maybe he did. But then, why didn't clone-Adam find any congenital defects when he went to re-pet to get his DNA checked? Well, maybe clone-Adam didn't go to re-pet. Maybe real Adam never found out that he wasn't clone-Adam, because he wasn't there to hear Drucker explain how to differentiate a clone from a human. Maybe clone-Adam hid the truth from real Adam, since he already had him convinced he was a clone! So the one that went to re-pet was actually real Adam!
It's a bit out of character isn't it? Why would clone-Adam do this? He is essentially still Adam, and Adam seems to be a stand up kinda guy. Not the sort of guy who lies for his own convenience, cheating someone else in the process and ensuring that his family will grieve for him much sooner than they should (since he's going to die in about two years). But he's also a sly devil, our Adam. And I'm willing to bet he thinks he can even outsmart himself.

Put yourself in clone-Adam's shoes. Yes, real Adam will have to know the truth some day, and obviously he can't put his family's well being at risk, as he knows he would if he died on them two years hence. But why does he have to tell real Adam the truth just this moment? Since he's a defective clone, isn't it his time that's limited? Doesn't he deserve some time with a family which is arguably his own (as he himself points out) before he dies? He can always tell his alter-ego the truth in a couple of years, just before he dies. And besides, real Adam could probably use a nice long vacation in Argentina, and it's not every day that you get a clone who's willing to fill in for you while you go explore the world. Of course, clone-Adam knows that real Adam might agree with him, he knows that maybe eventually, grudgingly, suspiciously he'd agree to let his clone live with his family instead of him. But why put real Adam through the moral dilemma of having to make that choice?

I'm reading far too much into an inconsequential little scene. I always do, when watching movies.
Probably Michael Drucker just made a bluff to buy himself some time. It actually would make sense if he didn't put a defect into Adam, because he doesn't want to be replacing him every couple of years or risk suspicion right? It's still fascinating to consider the possibility .

[johnson1010]

IO9 posted about an idea for preserving a brain indefinitely.

http://io9.com/5943304/how-to-preserve- ... to-plastic

interesting. I wonder, if this works, what wakes up on the other side of the ages? You?

[johnson1010]

A man ages 12 years before your eyes.

http://www.wimp.com/everydayphoto/