Do you believe in a supernatural creator, God or gods of any sort?

[Penelope]

Lacking a replacement organizational structure with instilled values, the non-religious in today's world sometimes flounder, lost without a cause. There are secular cause's that can be undertaken for a fulfilling life, but they are not well known.They have not had 2,000 years to be refined. And without some sanctified authority to tell us what's sanctified, we choose arbitrarily. Human life/love/human flourishing.

2,000 years is the span of Mere Christianity, to paraphrase C S Lewis. Many religions are much, much older.

It is our own attitude which sanctifies. When we visit old churches, or old abbey ruins there is often a distinct sense of sanctity. Those places are steeped in prayer over centuries, so Of course there is an atmosphere. I know there is such atmosphere and that it isn't the corporate imagination, because there are other ancient places with no atmosphere at all. And I have known some with a very restless and uncomfortable atmosphere.

I don't honestly think we need a 'sanctified authority' to tell us what is holy. I think we know, and I think we know what is unholy although we don't always choose to recognise it. Do you think torturers don't know what they are doing is wrong? They will say they are only doing their jobs and have been given authority by the powers that be.

We do however, need to be organised if we want to live in a civilised world. So, as that man once said, 'Render under Caesar that which is Caesar's, and obey the law. But render under God that which is Holy - and don't obey anybody.

P.S. I just noticed that I typed 'under' rather than 'unto' - but 'under' actually fits better in this instance. Under the heading of Caesar (although we have no Caesars now), and under the heading of 'God' because we don't know what God is, or whether we believe in it, but you know, 'the Goddish....spiritual part of us' just isn't a good heading.

[Robert Tulip]

you suffer from a crisis of faithlessness.

I have total faith in the capacity of humanity to find our place in nature. The real crisis of faith today is that people place their faith in delusions, such as God as an imaginary entity, and hold beliefs that are incompatible with reason. Supernaturalism is obsolete.

the multiverse is compatible with scientific observation!

But there is no evidence for the multiverse and it is totally implausible. A more useful and meaningful area of speculation in cosmology is to understand precession of the equinoxes and how it influences life on earth.

your belief of Roman conspiracies of planting documents related to the existence of Jesus.

It appears Bart Ehrman is returning to his competency zone and writing a new book on fraud and forgery in the Bible. Any implication that Christianity was not founded in conspiracy is risible. Burning books by edict involves conspiracy. Mystery cults involve conspiracy. Church hierarchy and canon and symbols constitute a conspiracy to accept some ideas and reject others.

[Penelope]

Robert:

Any implication that Christianity was not founded in conspiracy is risible. Burning books by edict involves conspiracy. Mystery cults involve conspiracy. Church hierarchy and canon and symbols constitute a conspiracy to accept some ideas and reject others.

Christianity has been warped, but according to the records, the Jesus person didn't give us any rules, in fact he disassociated himself from all the rules of Judaism. He told us to love one another is all. They began to make the rules up after he wasn't here anymore. It must have been a fairly large and avid following to cause them to hide and warp the teachings so well.

It makes me think that there might have been a person once, who taught us a better way, like Gandhi.

Robert, do you still preach in your local church? What do you preach? We always must accept some ideas and reject others, that is called growing up.

[johnson1010]

They are often so self involved with their lives, racing to accumulate material possessions, soaked in careerism, desperately attempting to balance their stressful existence with quick fix, mood altering prescription drugs.

No secularist i know of fits this description. Calling me materialistic, stressful, medicated, or fixated on a career are hilariously off the mark.

Their "angels" are State institutions they look to for answers to operating their lives efficiently. A formal education is seen as something that will teach them how to live, love, and prosper.

I want nothing from the state, but the provision of infrastructure. Community taught me about charity, empathy, sacrifice, marriage and my own assessment has taught me about death.

Religion does all this for us and more. The new breed of militant atheists are more interested in passive censorship by squashing the opinions of those that profess their belief in something much greater than us all. Something that demonstrates its magnificence in nature.

Religion does profess to know the answers to the great moral questions, but if it cannot be demonstrated to be accurate in the things i can check on, how does that lend credibility for the things i cannot check on?

Atheists' grand wizard is Science. They've hijacked it in the most deplorable of ways. A way that was not intended by some of the greatest scientific minds of our time - Darwin, Einstein, etc.

It doesn't matter what Einstein or Darwin believed about religion, or about science, for that matter. The only thing that matters about their beliefs is why they believed them, how accurately their beliefs could be demonstrated to reflect reality, and why we should believe them too. In any other sense their opinions were no more authoritative than anyone else.

About taking stock in something greater than myself...

I am confident my cosmology dwarfs the tiny universe of any bible-believing Christian. My universe spans billions of light years. My earth is older and vaster than their wildest imaginations. My lineage traces back through mammal to "reptile" "fish" to sludge, atom to energy, right to the birth light of the universe!

Do i not take note of my meager station when i appreciate that nearly 100% of human history has already been lost? Two, maybe 5 thousand years of knowledge out of the 200,000 or so we've been homo sapiens? Do i not marvel at the vastness of time and space when i lament that not only will i not get to see the other planets in my solar system first hand, i won't get to see every part of the one i live on? Or that there very likely are aliens out there which would hold up a mirror to the human mind more clear and insightful than any poem, or play we've written? That not only do they not know me, but humanity does not know me? If i've met ten thousand people in my life, humanity does not know me. ten thousand of seven billion? we are insignificant and invisible as can be, and yet the fact of our existence is extraordinary as a super nova, and just as inevitable.

No, i don't want religion to constrain me with it's "vastness", or the microcosm of their god's "omnipotence".



You see the sun's little burp up there?

It would scrub the earth clean. Literalists fear god's wrath? Let them get on the wrong side of physics.

[Penelope]

johnson:

I am confident my cosmology dwarfs the tiny universe of any bible-believing Christian. My universe spans billions of light years. My earth is older and vaster than their wildest imaginations. My lineage traces back through mammal to "reptile" "fish" to sludge, atom to energy, right to the birth light of the universe!

No, i don't want religion to constrain me with it's "vastness", or the microcosm of their god's "omnipotence".

Some religions are not constraining, but are liberating. Well, perhaps not 'Religions' as such.....but a religious, yet questioning attitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipDdd1SISoM

[Cattleman]

You want a view of the unverse? Try this, it was featured in the comic strip "Calvin and Hobbs" some years ago.

Eventually, we are all going to die; our species will become extinct; our sun will go nova; and the universe will disappear into a black hole.

Profound? Maybe not, but it puts a bad day in perspective.

[Doulos]

Robert:

Any implication that Christianity was not founded in conspiracy is risible. Burning books by edict involves conspiracy. Mystery cults involve conspiracy. Church hierarchy and canon and symbols constitute a conspiracy to accept some ideas and reject others.

Christianity has been warped, but according to the records, the Jesus person didn't give us any rules, in fact he disassociated himself from all the rules of Judaism. He told us to love one another is all. They began to make the rules up after he wasn't here anymore. It must have been a fairly large and avid following to cause them to hide and warp the teachings so well.

It makes me think that there might have been a person once, who taught us a better way, like Gandhi.

Robert, do you still preach in your local church? What do you preach? We always must accept some ideas and reject others, that is called growing up.

I think you're misinterpreting what Jesus taught however. Take the statement that, "He told us to love one another is all":

In one of the possible relevant texts, Jesus teaches, "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

Please note that;
a) the first and greatest commandment is not to love one another, but to love God.
b) 1 John 5:3 expands upon the meaning of love by stating, "This is love for God: to obey his commands."
c) This affirmation of the need for obedience to God is reflected in the closing phrase in this passage as well, which reminds us that, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I might also point to Jesus' many teachings through parables, the sermon on the mount, and ultimately to his departing statement to his disciples; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20).

Should these be termed 'rules'? In that final passage Jesus refers to them as commands.


I think what you might be perceiving is that Jesus taught against a slavish adherence to rules, but emphasized an application of commandments that was consistent with their spirit.

An example of this is the incident wof the healing on the shabbat:

"6On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. 7The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. 8But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

9Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”

10He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. 11But they were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus." (Luke 6:6-11)

The Jews here had focused on the external application of the shabbat, but had neglected the purpose behind it, which was to offer a day set aside (made holy) for the Lord.

It's not that there are no rules, but rather that we are to obey both the spirit and true intent of the rule.

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." (John 4:23)

[Penelope]

Thank you Doulos:

Please note that;
a) the first and greatest commandment is not to love one another, but to love God.
b) 1 John 5:3 expands upon the meaning of love by stating, "This is love for God: to obey his commands."
c) This affirmation of the need for obedience to God is reflected in the closing phrase in this passage as well, which reminds us that, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

It is just that I believe that the gospels and the epistles were written after Jesus had gone - and then 'they' began making up rules.

When quoting Jesus' reputed words, he is reported as saying:

Love one another
Love your neighbour as yourself
Feed my sheep
Do unto others as you would...etc
If you love me.....feed my sheep
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

He claims that when you show mercy to the least of creatures you show it to him...

By loving our fellow-man we are loving God, because there is no other way to love God.....we cannot love Him except through humanity.

Instead of following this simple way - we have made up rules - separated into different denominations - and fought and killed about those cursed rules.

And lost the simplicity of the original teachings.

Doulos, I have had this discussion on this forum, so often before that I am becoming a bore......I don't seek to convert anyone to my way of faith, I only want you to understand why I believe what I believe.

Quoting scripture will not work, because I am convinced that it has been mightily distorted over centuries. I have absolutely no faith in any of its words. I accept the spirit of what the man seems to have been trying to say.

[Olivia22]

Thank you Doulos:

Please note that;
a) the first and greatest commandment is not to love one another, but to love God.
b) 1 John 5:3 expands upon the meaning of love by stating, "This is love for God: to obey his commands."
c) This affirmation of the need for obedience to God is reflected in the closing phrase in this passage as well, which reminds us that, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

It is just that I believe that the gospels and the epistles were written after Jesus had gone - and then 'they' began making up rules.

When quoting Jesus' reputed words, he is reported as saying:

Love one another
Love your neighbour as yourself
Feed my sheep
Do unto others as you would...etc
If you love me.....feed my sheep
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

He claims that when you show mercy to the least of creatures you show it to him...

By loving our fellow-man we are loving God, because there is no other way to love God.....we cannot love Him except through humanity.

Instead of following this simple way - we have made up rules - separated into different denominations - and fought and killed about those cursed rules.

And lost the simplicity of the original teachings.

Doulos, I have had this discussion on this forum, so often before that I am becoming a bore......I don't seek to convert anyone to my way of faith, I only want you to understand why I believe what I believe.

Quoting scripture will not work, because I am convinced that it has been mightily distorted over centuries. I have absolutely no faith in any of its words. I accept the spirit of what the man seems to have been trying to say.

Penelope, I believe you're right about when the scriptures were written. It was after Jesus was gone. One of my co-workers (I'm an anthropologist and my co-worker is an anthropologist that focuses on religion) said that it's generally believed by scholars that most of the men who wrote the New Testament hadn't even known Jesus.

Personally I also believe the scripture has been distorted over time. How can anyone argue against that? Things were changed. Whole books were taken out. There seem to be several educated posters here so I have no doubt you've heard of the Council of Nicea. Anyway that's just my two-cents.

[johnson1010]

cattleman:
Eventually, we are all going to die; our species will become extinct; our sun will go nova; and the universe will disappear into a black hole.

As seems to be so often the case, i like Sagan's thought on it.

Carl Sagan:
The immense distance to the stars in the galaxies means that we see everything in space, in the past.

Some as they were before the earth came to be.

Telescopes are time machines.

Long ago, when an early galaxy began to pour light into the surrounding darkness, no witness could have known that billions of years later some remote clumps of rock and metal, ice and organic molecules would fall together to make a place called earth.

Or that life would arise. And that thinking beings would evolve who would one day capture a little of that galactic light and try to puzzle out what had sent it on it's way.

And after the earth dies, some five billion years from now... after it is burned to a crisp, or even swallowed by the sun, there will be other worlds. And other stars, and galaxies coming into being.

And they will know nothing of a place once called earth.