Asking for a logical reason for atheist/mythicist fear of spiritual revelation

[Interbane]

And actually, although it does not match precisely what I claimed Interbane said, it's still just as bad.
It's a sweeping statement about having evolved enough. The implication is that we have all the intelligence that is needed from evolution to attain higher thought.

It does not match precisely, and that is a technicality that matters. I stand by what I said in what you quoted. It's not necessary for us to evolve further. We've crossed a threshold. This is exemplified by the fact that we haven't evolved fur, yet survive in the cold. We haven't evolved to live in space, and yet we live in space. We haven't evolved to go to the bottom of the ocean, yet we go to the bottom of the ocean. Our minds have enabled a limitless array of extended phenotypes. We've transcended many of the limitations of our genetic code by virtue of our minds. The proof is in the pudding, the evidence all around you.

To be clear, I'm not saying that we won't evolve further, as I've pointed out many times.

Meanwhile..,

Interbane is prognosticating some future perfection of sorts because of a "threshold" that has been crossed.

Perfection? No, that's an ideal that I don't think is achievable. But you're mostly right. What argument do you have against my points? Mock contempt? Do you doubt that we will make progress in understanding the human genome? Do you doubt that we will manipulate it? Our genes will change, that's for sure. Both by evolution, and by our own intervention.

[DWill]

interbane did say we live in an indifferent and purposeless cosmos. But so what? Does he believe he's stating a fact as he says this, such that no one could have a different outlook? Should nobody say anything that they can't swear is purely factual? The physicist Steven Weinberg said the same thing. He believes it. But we don't have to think he's right, just because of his reputation as a physicist. That would be proof from authority.

[Ptimb]

Perfection? No, that's an ideal that I don't think is achievable. But you're mostly right. What argument do you have against my points? Mock contempt? Do you doubt that we will make progress in understanding the human genome? Do you doubt that we will manipulate it? Our genes will change, that's for sure. Both by evolution, and by our own intervention.

I think the idea of perfection belongs to the realm of the theist. Atheists don't really have a model of perfection that I can think of ( please give me an example if anyone can).

What exactly was that threshold?

When man first harnessed fire we crossed a threshold. With it we eventually created a 2nd stomach to digest food previously indigestible and the ability to stay warm in climates not suited to our natural biological make up. Since then we have created technologies which further our ability to utilize our surroundings as much as possible. Recently this has turned inwards in the form of genetic manipulation. This by no means is an indicator of being on the road to perfection. The idea of perfection presupposes an end point.

Do you theists believe that meaning can only be attained by striving for perfection (for Christians, being as Christy as you can be)? If the universe doesn't care about you, does that mean it is forever doomed to be devoid of meaning? Or am I completely missing the point here?

[sonoman]

We haven't been able to pin down how belief in a Vague, Generic Deity can provide meaning to your life when atheism fails.

Ant's belief system seems to be: Science doesn't have all the answers. So have faith in [missing content].

As for the OP's Biblical astrology, Robert Tulip is the guy you want to talk to.

Tulip is the reason I'm here. I saw the reference to his book on Acharya's blog and Facebooked him. So far, he's responded as a Facebook "friend" but nothing more. I will almost bet there will be another round of prejudice against spiritual revelation pitting Tulip as a higher "authority" on astrology because he arrives at his ideas through the accepted secular way, research scholarship, like Acharya, both producing their books as adults when as children I was being spiritually instructed to follow the same astrological embeddings in Scriptures. And while Acharya settled on the established sun-god identification of Jesus Christ because he does fit the dying/resurrection sun-god Archetype, God was confirming Jesus Christ's Aquarius credential for me which I know, as a Gnostic "knows", will in the end be the most complete identity of the Messiah/Christ which was established via astrological reverence for "As Above, So below".

I hope Tulip responds because I admit to be a rank amateur in astrology as I am not really very interested in the whole intricate workings of it, only the parts that confirm the astrological Messiah coding within the Bible that conveys and continues the Christ Aquarian Humanitarian Model from ancient times to our times and into the future.

What atheist/mythicists don't get is that Celestial Torah Christianity proves that the human idea of the Humanitarian, the Man Face of Aquarius who has the Urn or urns or bucket of Living Waters to pour as consecration for the good human being who righteously follows the good God, EL ELyon, Saturn. This Saturn/Aquarius combination is the secret heart of the Celestial Torah that was taken out of Egypt through the failed Hyksos experience along with a bunch of other Egyptian religious ideas, such as Akhenaton's monotheism which was applied to the Canaanite pantheon, removing all Canaanite deities except EL and Yahweh, both combined into one man-made YHWH, which destroyed the Saturn/Aquarius modality that is always permanently up there in the heavens where God is storing the evolving Humanitarian Model information for all humankind. And this straight-line Humanitarian Model going from ancient Sumeria/Egypt to our times, always conferring more humanitarian characteristics to the Model as social knowledge increases, with the Jesus Christ domination of the Humanitarian Model there to establish the spiritual linkage from Genesis I, humankind made in the image of the Godhead, the Elohim, to modern times. This constitutes a miraculous theology that persists through all efforts to destroy individual carriers of the Humanitarian Model. And now at the Celestial Torah Christianity stage, we have a Christianity that basically unites God with Humanity, i.e. a new form of revelatory Christian Humanism, not needing any divorce from theism because theism points the way to humanism, to how we human beings evolve to become humane beings, i.e., the ultimate goal of God consciousness.

At some point I will address the atheist mindset because as we see here, being in reality a secular form of religious fundamentalism, i.e. making up its mind with too little data and ignoring science findings opposing the atheist p.o.v., it really does interfere with objective study of human experiences of spiritual revelation.

[Interbane]

interbane did say we live in an indifferent and purposeless cosmos. But so what? Does he believe he's stating a fact as he says this, such that no one could have a different outlook? Should nobody say anything that they can't swear is purely factual? The physicist Steven Weinberg said the same thing. He believes it. But we don't have to think he's right, just because of his reputation as a physicist. That would be proof from authority.

I'm not an expert on the subject, and it's only my opinion. I may have a solid worldview, but that doesn't mean I'm not wrong.

Tulip is the reason I'm here. I saw the reference to his book on Acharya's blog and Facebooked him. So far, he's responded as a Facebook "friend" but nothing more.

Robert is always an excellent person to talk to. We agree on many things, but what makes the conversations great is that we also disagree on many things. We hash it out on "certainty" a couple times a year.

I hope Tulip responds because I admit to be a rank amateur in astrology as I am not really very interested in the whole intricate workings of it, only the parts that confirm the astrological Messiah coding within the Bible that conveys and continues the Christ Aquarian Humanitarian Model from ancient times to our times and into the future.

I don't want to be too confrontational and push you away, but there's something I have to point out in your comment above. Regardless of what the subject is, we should always be wary of confirmation bias. It's human nature to seek evidence that confirms what we believe. But that is a weakness, because we exclude all the contrary evidence that could show us to be wrong. It hurts to be wrong, but that's all the more reason to understand opposing viewpoints. I for one wish to know if I'm wrong.

Confirmation bias.

What atheist/mythicists don't get is that Celestial Torah Christianity proves that the human idea of the Humanitarian, the Man Face of Aquarius who has the Urn or urns or bucket of Living Waters to pour as consecration for the good human being who righteously follows the good God, EL ELyon, Saturn.

That is not proven. Maybe 'suggests' or 'indicates', but proof is irrefutable.

At some point I will address the atheist mindset because as we see here, being in reality a secular form of religious fundamentalism, i.e. making up its mind with too little data and ignoring science findings opposing the atheist p.o.v., it really does interfere with objective study of human experiences of spiritual revelation.

Could you give an example of spiritual revelation, or explain what you mean by it? I take it to mean knowledge magically popping into a person's head. Different from an epiphany, different from sudden understanding. If you have an epiphany of sorts, what makes you think it isn't the workings of your mind coming to a conclusion, rather than knowledge magically manifesting?

[Dexter]

What atheist/mythicists don't get is that Celestial Torah Christianity proves that the human idea of the Humanitarian, the Man Face of Aquarius who has the Urn or urns or bucket of Living Waters to pour as consecration for the good human being who righteously follows the good God, EL ELyon, Saturn.

I definitely don't get it. Sorry, but this is a bunch of made up stuff.

At some point I will address the atheist mindset because as we see here, being in reality a secular form of religious fundamentalism, i.e. making up its mind with too little data and ignoring science findings opposing the atheist p.o.v., it really does interfere with objective study of human experiences of spiritual revelation.

Where are these "science findings"?

[Robert Tulip]

I have read through this thread. It seems Chris has kindly unbanned Sonoman, aka Biomystic, who had quite a run-in with Acharya S over his views of religion around the time Booktalk was discussing her book Christ in Egypt.

Sonoman's critique of atheism gives the initial appearance of positing a supernatural magical theory of divine revelation, a theory with no basis in natural science. The title of this thread, speaking of fear of revelation, will naturally inspire doubts about his sanity, since there has never been any revelation providing evidence of God as anything other than a human imaginary construction.

Having had a bit of a look now at his website, I think Sonoman has some good ideas, but the presentation is rather bombastic and exaggerated, faults that I myself am probably guilty of at times. Where Sonoman is rather over the top is in claiming access to divine prophetic revelation and asserting that his speculative interpretations are objective fact. Claims may seem intuitively obvious to Sonoman, but convincing other people is another matter entirely.

My own view is that the hidden astral symbolism in the Bible needs to be reconciled with a scientific worldview. Sonoman uses this symbolism to make a generalised critique of atheism, where a more constructive approach in my view would be to seek alliance with atheism, and to explore how atheism can evolve to analyse religious symbolism and its psychological meaning within a scientific worldview.

The opening post here speaks about 'evidence' and 'facts' in an ungrounded way. As others have noted, the claims about 'Celestial Torah' are nebulous. To explore these topics properly, you really have to assume that science provides a true basis for investigation. Rejecting science is a blind alley.

I have had a bit of a look at biomystic's website. I liked it more than I expected, although it seems the occupational hazard of this field is bombastic writing. (Bombastus was the middle name of Paracelsus, one of the founders of alchemy.) The experience of others' rejection of spiritual visions can lead to an inflated and isolated style, where a more cautious and evidentiary approach would be more convincing and accessible.

I recently wrote a short article on Jesus Christ, Avatar of the Age of Pisces? My aim in this paper is to provide a hypothesis of how Christianity originated as a celestial religion, a hypothesis that aims to explain the evidence we have of church history.

My assumption is that God does not exist except as a product of human imagination, and that the church started by putting actual observation of the stars into symbolic human form. This is quite a complex argument, and the challenge is to explain it in ways that do not make leaps of logic that others cannot understand.

Any discussion of the zodiac produces hostile reactions on the part of both scientists and the religious. I think Sonoman shows in his opening post why this prejudicial reaction occurs. His statement that atheists and mythicists fear revelation is not a helpful way to frame the debate.

The reality is that scientists and philosophers who focus on logic and evidence have extensive experience of claims to revelation being shown up as false. So the atheist attitude towards revelation is not fear but contempt. Anyone wishing to make their claims about prophetic revelation convincing to others has to be very careful not to destroy their credibility. The New Age movement includes such an array of crazies that anyone trying to approach these topics scientifically and sympathetically will naturally be lumped in and dismissed.

[sonoman]

But there you are chiming in with the atheist modality that I am convinced is based on fear of spiritual revelation that atheists do not understand and yet know deep down that they rightly fear it--because if spiritual revelation is true, atheism is not.

I don't inhabit a world of atheistic science. I gave that up when I left U.C.B. as an anthropology major to join in the '60's cultural revolution, the whole nine yards, becoming a psychedelic artist, then eutopian planner, commune organizer, Communities Magazine starter (still being published) and a list of sundry social change and environmental protection project organizer, still active today at age 69 in four days, just had lunch with one of the Harbor Commissioners here re a tribal/union/port authority alliance because in my work I interact with county officials, state officials, ceo's, (was environmental consultant for the biggest private employer in Humboldt County), tribal leaders, religious leaders, in short, a host of professional people who never look at me as a "crazy" like you atheists really want to paint people like me as, because you fear us. Most all these people in my county are well aware of my religious adventures and radical Gnostic Christian beliefs. I had the CEO of that same top employer drive me and my children to access the headwaters of Headwaters Forest owned by that company at that time before the State bought it out to do the five baptism ritual of Paxcalibur. I've had tea with the Melkite Catholic Archbishop of the Holy Land Dioceses. I can talk with all these people because God's given me a holistic polymath mindset, one that is bicameral having good access to both left and right hemispheres which shows up in my ability to articulate spiritual experiences. Those of you who get to my website at: http://biomystic.com will notice most of my writings do not follow the Celestial Torah Christianity entries. That is because I switched modalities choosing imagery to speak louder than words to convey what to me is a clear Sign Language of instruction from God that follows a most definite Aquarian/Saturn theological theme, the Messiah/Christ/Anointed One baptismal centered effort going back 4000 years to link humanitarian concern (the Living Waters baptism symbology), a spiritual linage that I at first unconsciously was following and only in these last couple of years has the astrological meanings become clear to me, thanks very much to research like Finkelstein and Silberman's confirmation of my 34 years of doubting the Bible stories, and thanks to Acharya too who I'd like to thank personally for giving me understanding of the John the Baptist role I was unconsciously playing out before then in 2011, consciously played it out for the first time in my prophesy bearing work. This was done in the Vision of Christ Josephine mission. Read about it here at: http://biomystic.org/josephine.htm.

I can't lead atheists to spiritual revelation. I was an atheist myself until age 35 and it took a rather large effort by God to overthrow my science-explains all mindset. But it was done and ever since my mind is aware there really is a hidden spiritual dimension to material reality. And our brains are evolved to receive spiritual phenomena. Mine did, again and again. Still does. And like those before me, it produces religious visions not chaotically at all but running in a continuous line of thematic coherence for thousands of years. I had zip reasons to fabricate any "Christian" religious themes to my religious experience seeing how I was actually antagonistic to religion and Christianity especially prior to my religious conversion experience. But that Christ icon cannot be beat for focusing the human ideal of Self-Sacrifice for Love of Humanity and all my religious experiences confirm this which is why I am so confident in its universality moving into the humanist domain and establishing a new spiritual base for it, a Christian one because of the Humanitarian Model focused in the Christ iconic imagery coming from heaven above in astrological connections to earth below in the religions that convey the Christ ideal, however badly for the Paul dominated traditional Christianities and early Gnostics, to a more simplified universal stellar rooted Celestial Torah Christianity now provided through spiritual revelation.

I understand the criticism that I have cherry picked the Humanitarian Model theme through the millennia by purposely ignoring the otherwise dominating religious ideologies containing the Humanitarian Model information. Yes, I do deliberately sweep away the interfering man-made mumbo-jumbo that almost always gets it wrong by editors taking religious visions and tweaking them politically to serve man-made territorial control goals. This is what the atheists and mythicists see and conclude ALL spiritual revelation is bogus, man-made. But that's just not true. I'm a creative person and I've never sweated profusely whenever I got an idea for a painting or new toy design or another communitarian plan but I did for three days in my original conversion experience. Just like Muhammad reported whenever I got a spiritual epiphany coming through my mind I sweated. In lesser epiphanies I shook, like Quakers and Shakers and shamans do, because spiritual energy is real. It produces physical manifestations as well as recognizable thematic characteristics. And there is a difference in kind between the visions of the mad and those of prophesy bearers. I don't have a secret room with tiny illegible script covering the walls declaring Jesus is Christ Aquarius and the Spirit of Christ is Coming! Do you think I would ever be hired or listened to by top people if I displayed a lunatic mindset. Would you be reading this now if I posted like you all have probably seen a thoroughly schizoid usually fundamentalist Christian mindset claiming to be the Messiah or Messenger of God, kinda like some over-the-top Prophets-at-Large I know personally but hey, wait a minute! That's not what I meant! Alright, Ok. You got me there because I do feel that Divinely authorized sense of spiritual authority to reestablish spiritual authenticity by just doing my spiritual activist work as a new, and this time, Jewish Christian prophesy bearer. Jesus said the truth: There's only one way to tell a real prophesy bearer from a fraud or madman. Look at the fruits of the words and then judge their worth. So this generation really can only feel the Call of Christ Aquarius and respond as the fruits of Celestial Torah Christian revelation, the Gospel of Humanity, the Story of Paxcalibur, the Vision of Christ Josephine, will be down the road for future generations.

But here's a little something that's occurred in the last two weeks. Those of you who read the Vision of Christ Josephine know that there is now a new Josephine Bundle with a Northern Cheyenne Keeper of it in Lame Deer, Mt. I lost the Keeper's address and need it to mail the Celestial Torah Christianity material to be added to the Josephine Bundle. Well, the Keeper doesn't answer his phone and the only other way to contact him I knew of is through his niece and her daughter, being I guess a great-niece who's also the daughter of my Bear River tribal friend. Anyway to make this story short, I hit a road block with anger from my friend's daughter and son-in-law at him and me being his friend, no way going to help us, so how do I get hold of their uncle, the Keeper of the Josephine Bundle? Not 24 hours elapsed before I got two notifications, from this Northern Cheyenne young woman from Lame Deer, Mt. who wanted to contact me desperately to tell me about her own ankh vision and how she was looking up ankh information and stumbled across my Vision of Christ Josephine and was blown away by the synchronicity. So now we are in touch and going to be talking to the U.C.S.B. Religious Studies group hopefully next month. This type of synchronicity is how God "talks" with me to confirm that the spiritual energy and form I receive and transmit is real. It will produce real tangible face-to-face confirmation in another human mind, that being just like love, the way to know spiritual energy has influenced your mind and actions.

[Interbane]

Hi Stephen/biomystic.

[youkrst]

because if spiritual revelation is true, atheism is not.

surely that would depend on the nature of the spiritual revelation and the nature of the atheism.

i have heard atheists say that if they were presented with proof of something beyond their current understanding they would change their thinking.

for something to be recieved as more than interpretation or subjective experience but rather as FACT requires a different level of verification, i can for example accept as fact that some people believe in a historical jesus but i cannot accept historical jesus as fact (evidence problem attached to mythical figure)

i am completely atheist regarding yahweh (to me just a bad metaphor) but not so quick to exclude ALL possibility of there being much more going on in and around me than simply "5 sense reality" but NOT prepared to try and force other people to acknowledge something i can barely articulate to myself let alone prove.

if you could prove it there would be no need to believe it, you would know it, along the lines that Carl Jung used to say.

atheists come in all shapes and sizes and variations and many seem like wonderful people from whom i can (and do) learn a lot, i could say the same for christians, hindus, sufis, jews etc etc but i am not about to accept that abhorrent stupidity known as literalism.

but i remain, i hope, open to new knowledge and new possibilities and new metaphors etc etc hell, even a new sandwich would be nice occassionally!

i can relate to all the different groups whether atheists, mystics, psychologists, empiricists, poets, burger flippers or whatever.

whatever is good, sensible, verifiable or just funny or interesting or downright weird about the system or position i am up for it!

but you can't blame atheism if what you are trying to convey doesn't make sense to someone.

perhaps they are doing the honourable thing refusing to accept what they cannot rightly understand from the information thus far presented to them, perhaps the mystic is expecting too much from people trying to describe the indescribable to them.

i think i could land on a mystic forum and hold my own running the gamut from Jungian archetypes to Kosmic Krists to tree auras etc etc some ideas having some merit and some ideas being woo woo in the extreme, yes, ideas ranging from one to ten on the woo woo scale.

but i hope i could just as easily land on an atheist forum and respect evidence based thinking and a desire to be properly persuaded rather than just embrace any old quackery that comes down the turn pike.

i dont adhere so much to the division atheist, mythicist, theist etc etc they are all just labels that people fit more or less in one regard or another.

i think that any single proposition can be put forward and thought about and we will see if it has any merit in any way to anyone, those that accept it accept it (hopefully cautiously at first) those that reject it reject it (hopefully cautiously at first) and good luck to both of them.

i can see why one would mock someone who proposes a literalist yahweh but i cant see a problem neccessarily with someone who likes a reason for what they accept as worthwhile, indeed i applaud them and thank them for a valuable lesson.

to say atheists reject out of fear of the unknown seems less likely than saying believers reject out of a fear they may believe things they dont understand, which as stevie wonder reminds us is superstition and is not the way.

also if we identify with an idea and the idea is rejected then we feel rejected, but a rejection of an idea is not quite the same thing.

people make it personal but it doesnt have to be that way at all, or so it seems to me at least.