Still no atheist logic being shown here

[stahrwe]

Let me clarify my previous comment; the issues focused on in TMWWT deal with order v. chaos, good v. evil, law v. free will, not the Aquarian Gospel which I also have a copy of and found it hopelessly muddled.

[johnson1010]

Or God, being omnipotent and not lacking in imagination, could very easily change every person in existence to have free will, yet unwilling to participate in evil.

For instance, there are people who have never seriously given any consideration to killing someone else. That person is just as capable of murder as anyone else. They still have "free will" whatever that may turn out to be, and yet they would never murder anyone.

God could certainly make that the baseline for morality and judge us each in how we differ from that starting point.

But if god sets limits on us then we can't have free will!

God, if he were actually responsible for our creation has already set limits on us. I can't shoot lasers out of my eyes. This would be very helpful in everyday situations. Man would have invented fire much earlier in history. But it could also be used to kill people from a distance. God, if he played any part in our creation, has already denied us the ability to kill with laser eyes. He's removed that possibility from our field of choices. He's made it impossible for us to subjugate others with mind control, even though the benefits of telepathy would be hard to overstate.

So if god was involved, he's already set the parameters of what it is possible for us to do. If he wanted to exclude things like rape, genocide, torture, and slavery from our available options it would have been as easy as creating the universe. No problem at all, in other words.

[Chris OConnor]

Stahrwe, I just want a God that is purported to be loving to not allow little children to be murdered. To me this seems reasonable. Any human father that knows their child is going to be murdered, has the power to prevent the murder, yet opts to not get involved would be behind bars. Why can't we demand the same from God?

[Dexter]

Where are the atheist answers to my challenge questions? You haven't addressed them. Until you or any atheists here provide answers to these basic challenge questions, here they are spelled out again, so you won't be fudging with diversionary slander and other side issues, 1) explain how human beings as the successful top species in the food chain, successfully meeting every environmental challenge which means each evolutionary advance has been successful, come to have their brains hardwired to receive and process spiritual phenomena if spiritual phenomena is non-existent? 2) explain why there is at least 40,000 years of human beings paying great amounts of attention to these same supposedly non-existent forces if it is a delusional state of mind shared by the vast majority of human beings still today?

Again, do you acknowledge that there are countless "spiritual experiences" that must be in contradiction to what you believe? Obviously they can't all point to truths about the universe. If so, then the fact that lots of people have such experiences proves nothing. If anything it would be the opposite of the point you would like to make -- spiritual revelation must be an extremely unreliable guide to knowledge.

3) Answer why any rational person would accept atheists answers to the question of God and the existence of spiritual reality when science is still virtually in its infancy stage of knowledge of the way the universe works, i.e., it's illogical to make judgments on phenomena that is opaque to us now

The atheist "answer" is not a theory, it is simply that there is no reason to believe in God.

But you think it's logical that God is telling you to find the answers in ancient astrology. Gotcha.

[johnson1010]

1) explain how human beings as the successful top species in the food chain, successfully meeting every environmental challenge which means each evolutionary advance has been successful, come to have their brains hardwired to receive and process spiritual phenomena if spiritual phenomena is non-existent?

Humans have become the top of the food chain due to our intelligence, and the development of culture. Culture in it’s most basic form, I would say, is the set of behaviors which allow many organisms to co-exist together and thrive for the support of all individuals. This is accomplished through communication. What are we communicating to eachother? Patterns that we notice in the environment. Hoof-prints = prey. Water may lead to edible plants, tall grass shifting against the wind may indicate an animal in hiding.


These are natural patterns that we observe, then layer an additional communication layer on top of to encrypt the information to be decompressed by the listener. When I type “Dog” that means something different to you than “lion”. Some irregularities are out there of course.


one of these is a dogg, the other a lion.







But anyway, one of our most successful traits is the identification of patterns and to create narratives that explain to us, and to others what those patterns mean for our survival.

We are such good pattern seekers that it leads to false positives.

http://www.booktalk.org/a-million-cause ... t8841.html?

Which means we are pre-disposed to seeing intent. Why? Because paranoia saves more lives than ambivalence.

The guy who’s ready to run every time he hears a twig snap might look like a fool 99 times out of a hundred, but on that one time when it was a bear, he’s got a head start while you are still laughing at him.


And so when things happen that are not readily explained we attribute stories to them. The more mysterious the event, the more outrageous the story we conjure to explain it away. Some of these stories become religion.

2) explain why there is at least 40,000 years of human beings paying great amounts of attention to these same supposedly non-existent forces if it is a delusional state of mind shared by the vast majority of human beings still today?

For the vast majority of history we were hunter gatherers. We were subsistence livers. We did not gather excess. We had no place to rest. We were immediately concerned with where we would drink fresh water, where we would find food, and where we could shelter from the hazards of the wild environment. In these circumstances there was little time available to conduct rigorous experiments to get to the bottom of things.


Eventually we caught on to farming. This lead to excess of food, and the break-up of labor. It meant that not everyone needed to be immediately concerned with where the food would come from, or where to shelter their family. It left people with time on their hands. Communication gets better, writing begins to develop. Ideas are passed more easily from generation to generation, and with the establishment of trading comes ideas from across the plain, or across the sea.

Like magic, knowledge that you don’t have to work to acquire yourself is available. This village learns about irrigation by digging ditches, this village learns about crop rotation. Combine them together and both are better off than either apart.

In all this time serious inquiry, rigorous inquiry, was hard to come by. Because the daily pressure to survive was too strenuous, and because the method of passing information was too poor, and provincial. (verbal)

In the last few thousand years though, people have stopped moving so much. We’ve had time to think things through. And nearly as soon as that was possible there have been people who compared experimental results with the magical stories people invented to explain the things they could not easily explain. And the people who learned from reality told the people who heard the tales that they were wrong.

Now information is easier to come by than ever before. More and more people have access to information gathered by making inquiries into the way the world actually works, rather than just what everyone always assumed about the world, passed generation to generation.

People still cling to these old stories, for a variety of reasons. Emotional attachment, ignorance, fear of change, indoctrination… But having the real information at hand is having it’s effect. The second largest, and fastest growing demographic in America, for instance, identifies as “non-religious”. Because we don’t have to rely on myths and fairy tales anymore. Because science gives results.

[johnson1010]

3) Answer why any rational person would accept atheists answers to the question of God and the existence of spiritual reality when science is still virtually in its infancy stage of knowledge of the way the universe works, i.e., it's illogical to make judgments on phenomena that is opaque to us now

Sorry, I missed this one.

Atheism doesn’t HAVE answers, it IS the answer. To the question, “Do you believe in god.” And my answer is no. That makes me an atheist.

That doesn’t automatically make my answers the same answers that everyone who is an atheist would give.

Science is indeed in it’s infancy, and already it has hauled us up out of the muck, while mystics kick and scream, to put us under warm roofs, with full bellies, to live longer, less diseased lives.

A rational person might accept that the properties of atoms lead to fire, rather than it being the work of an invisible, intangible supernatural, unknowable entity because atoms explain everything about fire, and the spooky supernatural entity explains nothing at all. Instead it throws another layer of mystery, one that is designed to be impenetrable, on top of the first.

Perhaps a rational person appreciates the good reasons scientists have for saying the things they say. That a scientist does not require that you believe, but insists that you double check them. That a scientist tells you how to get the same results they get, they when you try those methods, they work. Results, in other words, speak loudly where mystic secrets stay silent.

[Ptimb]

1) explain how human beings as the successful top species in the food chain, successfully meeting every environmental challenge which means each evolutionary advance has been successful, come to have their brains hardwired to receive and process spiritual phenomena if spiritual phenomena is non-existent?

It is enough that an evolutionary trait not be harmful for it to persist. Belief in spiritual phenomena in no way impedes our ability to meet environmental challenges. I don't know that you are receiving spiritual phenomena but you are right in saying that you and others are processing it as spiritual phenomena. When you refer to spiritual phenomena I am taking that to mean a feeling of oneness with the cosmos, channeling the voice of another being/beings in the form of text or speech, and ESP. If this is incorrect please explain what you mean or give examples of spiritual phenomena.

2) explain why there is at least 40,000 years of human beings paying great amounts of attention to these same supposedly non-existent forces if it is a delusional state of mind shared by the vast majority of human beings still today? We lock up mentally disturbed people precisely because they can't deal effectively with reality.

Being delusional in this context doesn't mean not being able to deal effectively with reality. Many people who believe in ET's visiting earth, faeries, and ghosts get along fine in reality in spite of their delusion. By using the same vocabulary to refer to the non-existing forces individuals are able to reassure themselves of the validity of their experiences and generate a world view in which they can feel important. It is reassuring to believe that the world/universe/cosmos needs us. Religion/spirituality serves this function well.

3) Answer why any rational person would accept atheists answers to the question of God and the existence of spiritual reality

I don't have to believe in electricity to experience it. I don't have to believe in magnetism to experience it. I don't have to believe in gravity to experience it. But for some reason I have to open myself up to god in order to experience a spiritual reality. It is rational to believe that all forces work with or without your belief. If you have to believe in something in order to experience it then it probably isn't real.

[sonoman]

You're literally nuts.

And those who resort to childish slander are without reasoned argument. Come back and post some answers like others have been doing instead of name-calling.

[sonoman]

Where are the atheist answers to my challenge questions? You haven't addressed them. Until you or any atheists here provide answers to these basic challenge questions, here they are spelled out again, so you won't be fudging with diversionary slander and other side issues, 1) explain how human beings as the successful top species in the food chain, successfully meeting every environmental challenge which means each evolutionary advance has been successful, come to have their brains hardwired to receive and process spiritual phenomena if spiritual phenomena is non-existent? 2) explain why there is at least 40,000 years of human beings paying great amounts of attention to these same supposedly non-existent forces if it is a delusional state of mind shared by the vast majority of human beings still today?

Again, do you acknowledge that there are countless "spiritual experiences" that must be in contradiction to what you believe? Obviously they can't all point to truths about the universe. If so, then the fact that lots of people have such experiences proves nothing. If anything it would be the opposite of the point you would like to make -- spiritual revelation must be an extremely unreliable guide to knowledge.

3) Answer why any rational person would accept atheists answers to the question of God and the existence of spiritual reality when science is still virtually in its infancy stage of knowledge of the way the universe works, i.e., it's illogical to make judgments on phenomena that is opaque to us now

The atheist "answer" is not a theory, it is simply that there is no reason to believe in God.

Why do you say that when the vast majority of human beings don't agree with you? You have no rational reason not to believe in God based on that logic of the majority of people believing in God unless you are willing to believe the vast majority of human beings are irrational which puts you in a paranoid frame of mind again without rational basis as obviously the majority of human beings are not irrational, otherwise you and I would not be here discussing this issue.


But you think it's logical that God is telling you to find the answers in ancient astrology. Gotcha.

Follow the logical trail that starts over 4000 years ago. Look at this ancient Egyptian zodiac representation of Aquarius and the follow through baptisms of kings and priests and prophets carrying the Aquarian icons in the Bible stories, e.g. Moses' very name derived from the Egyptian word for water which is also the hieroglyph used for the Sign of Aquarius.



[center][/center]


It would help matters if my critics actually read the Celestial Torah Christianity information because a lot is explained there that is being misunderstood here.

[Interbane]

Follow the logical trail that starts over 4000 years ago.

The word logic doesn't apply here. Not even in the sense that you're stretching an underused connotation of the word. It's the wrong word, plain and simple. Have you ever actually checked the definition?

1) explain how human beings as the successful top species in the food chain, successfully meeting every environmental challenge which means each evolutionary advance has been successful, come to have their brains hardwired to receive and process spiritual phenomena if spiritual phenomena is non-existent?

The question assumes a premise. You're assuming there are spiritual phenomena. That assumption must be supported first, before there is any meaning to your question. The problem is, you're attempting to use the question as support. It's circular.

2) explain why there is at least 40,000 years of human beings paying great amounts of attention to these same supposedly non-existent forces if it is a delusional state of mind shared by the vast majority of human beings still today?

There are many books that answer this. For example. We are not plugged directly into the truth of the universe. We believe things that are false, we see false patterns, and we come to false conclusions. All the time, all across history. That fact answers this question.

3) Answer why any rational person would accept atheists answers to the question of God and the existence of spiritual reality when science is still virtually in its infancy stage of knowledge of the way the universe works, i.e., it's illogical to make judgments on phenomena that is opaque to us now

You're erroneously assuming that atheist answers are synonymous with scientific answers. You're excluding the entire field of philosophy, where the question belongs. Which means the questions is nonsensical.