Still no atheist logic being shown here

[sonoman]

Well if this has been launched Celestial Torah Christianity then give us a link to it.

Celestial Torah Christianity at: http://biomystic.org/celestialtorah.htm

[sonoman]

Christ as Sun God will fade away to be replaced by Christ Aquarius

"Christ Aquarius" is a reference to the zodiac age of Aquarius. What this means is that the stellar position of the sun at the March equinox has precessed through the constellation of Pisces and will soon reach Aquarius, moving at the rate of one zodiac sign every 2147 years.

So "Christ Aquarius" and "Christ as Sun God" are identical.

The Age of Aquarius is purely a marker of the observable position of the sun. Nothing else. The equinox entered Pisces in 21 AD. Considering the zodiac as a circle divided in twelve equal parts, the equinox will enter Aquarius in 2168 AD.

What b.s, Robert. You're saying the sun is the same as the Sign of Aquarius which is totally illogical and if taken seriously would make any astrological system absurd. Each element in the astrological system was assigned its own characteristics and they of course are different from each other to create a holistic system that moves through time and space in an orderly fashion. You'll have to do better than that to slander the Christ Aquarius identification which now supersedes the Christ as sun-god one because it's a much better astrological fit. The sun-god identity does not fit the Canaanite gods used by the Jews with the Story of Jesus Christ following that Jewish/Canaanite tradition which is the linkage of Saturn (EL Elyon) with Aquarius. The Cheribim who guard the Garden are the Cardinal Signs with the Man Sign the one that speaks and thinks for the animal body that represents our physical/spiritual evolution as well as the way we center ourselves mentally, (bicameral unification) through balancing the Four Directions, an Archetypal spiritual mandala. You don't recognize these spiritual apparatus so must rely on physical properties which lead you types to erroneous conclusions, such as believing astronomy's sidereal mapping replaces astrology's ancient system which were fuzzy to begin with, the ancients not having the technology for precise calculations. The Mayans did the best job of the ancients and they came to their end of the Precession of the Equinoxes last year's end which saw also the end dates for several other psychically or religiously based End Times predictions. What this means to those who hear the Christ Aquarian Call is that for us the Age of Aquarius has begun now. God's not waiting around for the "correct" stellar arrangements according to astronomers and those astrologer's trying to be astronomically correct. Yet even there if you check, Robert, you will find dispute among professional astrologers re the beginning date for the Age of Aquarius. I say as a prophesy bearer for the Spirit of Christ in the Age of Aquarius, as one with sun in Aquarius and rising sign Aquarius, the Age of Aquarius begins now and that the Collective Unconscious trumps the material universe in psychic power. If you're not an Aquarian, if you haven't heard the Christ Aquarian Call, you don't have any authority to override all of us who have entered New Age consciousness. You're on the Other Side in the Aquariana Divide, stuck in Piscean Age separate fish where only one of them gets the Living Waters juice from Aquarius' urn.

[geo]

Logic can be found in the recently published atheist eBook Miraclescam. It outlines the development of spiritual belief from the first human families and explains why we are burdened by supernatural 'Theobabble' today. The Bible has been with us for almost two millennia therefore I believe it has social value, and there has to be a fundamental reason why we argue about its contents. I am new at forums and may make a few mistakes; remember the golden rule.

Hey Grizzlyman, you're entering a veritable &^%*storm here. Some of this current discussion has an astrotheist bent, so watch where you step!

I'm more of the mind that the Bible is largely irrelevant to society at large, but personally relevant to many. Personally, I see its mythological, historical and literary relevance.

I'd be interested in hearing why you believe The Bible still has social value.

[grizzlyman]

A large % of society depend on the Bible for guidance, therefore it has a positive social value as have other Holy books. Because you or I do not believe some of its content does not invalidate the book entirely. Many of its ancient stories contain a message that we can recognise as being relative to situations in our society today. In being the most reproduced literature of all time it also has had a beneficial influence in the spread of literacy. I do not care for the manner in which it has been used to spread a seriously flawed ideology, however that is not the fault of the book. While it contains many aspects of the darker human character its contents were placed there by human leaders and scholars. Anything that endures virtually unchanged for almost two millennia must contain some positive value, and such I believe it has.
Thanks for the warning Geo.

[geo]

Well said, Grizzlyman.

Sometimes folks ridicule the Bible, but I think this is more of a reaction to the fundamentalist type ideology you mentioned. It helps to remember the historical context in which the Bible was written and focus on the passages that are still relevant. It helps me anyway. I sometimes have to remind myself of this. I find biblical references in works of literature and it reminds me that we still have a connection with people who lived a long time ago.

[DWill]

Even Christopher Hitchens had good things to say about the Bible...well, a few, anyway. I was in a doctor's office today, and the only thing to read besides medical literature was a Gideon's Bible. I thought of Rocky Racoon and then opened it up. I started to read the book of Job, which is one part of the Bible I do like. Didn't get far, but I noted that the translation was "the New King James," which I hadn't heard of. The language was a little friendlier than the old KJ, yet it had a similar kind of cadence and stately quality. I do still have an idea to read the whole dang Bible, but it's parts like the histories that make my eyes glaze over.

Speaking of Hitchens, there's a book just out called Unhitched, which as you might guess is a diatribe against the late author. If this seems like kicking a man when he's down, that's probably okay, because Hitch himself sometimes didn't even wait until after the funeral to kick whoever he thought deserved it. The book got a lousy review in the Washington Post.

[Robert Tulip]

You're saying the sun is the same as the Sign of Aquarius which is totally illogical and if taken seriously would make any astrological system absurd.

Sonoman, my approach to astrology is purely scientific. I did not say the sun is the same as the Sign of Aquarius. The sign of Aquarius is a region of the sky with various definitions. Sidereally, Aquarius is a group of stars. Tropically, by reference to the seasons, Aquarius is a thirty degree arc of the ecliptic that the sun traverses each year in January and February. The sidereal and tropical positions of Aquarius were the same at the time of Christ, but they are separating from each other due to precession of the equinoxes.
The imagined symbolic identity of Aquarius as the water bearer appears to derive from very ancient understanding of the seasons. Aquarius is the month mid-way between the winter solstice and the spring equinox, a period that has much the same climate every year. The extent to which the astrological imagination of Aquarius is grounded in empirical observation is extremely difficult to assess. Scientific analysis has found almost no statistical support for sun signs as having any real effect.

The Christ Aquarius identification now supersedes the Christ as sun-god one because it's a much better astrological fit.

Your claim here is silly. The observed position of the sun is moving against the stellar background by one degree every 71.6 years, causing the shift from the Age of Pisces to the Age of Aquarius. Your identification of Christ with Aquarius obtains its symbolic power purely and solely from the old archetype of Christ as Sun God. Your ideas are part of the myth of Christ as Sun God, despite your assertion that you reject this myth.

The sun-god identity does not fit the Canaanite gods used by the Jews with the Story of Jesus Christ following that Jewish/Canaanite tradition which is the linkage of Saturn (EL Elyon) with Aquarius.

Such talk is obscure. Saturn is the traditional astrological ruler of Aquarius and Capricorn, the two coldest months. Saturn is El, as in Israel, but your linkage of the Aquarian Christ to Saturn rather than the sun makes no sense. There is no real sense in which the archetype of Christ is shifting its cosmic base from the sun to Saturn.

What does make sense is putting these astrological ideas into an astronomical framework, and exploring how the ancients may have used them. Eschatology, the theory of End Times and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, is based on very ancient observation of the stars, including and especially precession of the equinoxes. Orthodox Christianity held that time consists of seven thousand years from creation to consummation. The final thousand years is envisaged as the millennium of peace and restoration. This 7000 year myth relates directly to the Genesis story of seven days of creation, through the statement in Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 that a thousand years is as a day to God. Against precession of the equinoxes, this 7000 year time frame of the seven days of creation equates to the 3.5 zodiac ages of Taurus, Aries, Pisces and the first half of Aquarius. Further, we could speculate that this 7000 years is the times, time and half a time of the tribulation, understood against the fall from grace.

This is mainly just clockwork – any prophetic meaning applied to this framework is another matter. What looks clear to me is that the ancients did in fact use objective knowledge of the flow of time observed in precession as the physical framework to construct Christian mythology.

The Cheribim who guard the Garden are the Cardinal Signs

That is pure speculation. I could equally speculate that the Cherubim are Castor and Pollux, the twins of Gemini, standing above the Milky Way and marking the position of the equinox before the fall from grace. Such claims are about imaginative reconstruction.

with the Man Sign the one that speaks and thinks for the animal body that represents our physical/spiritual evolution as well as the way we center ourselves mentally, (bicameral unification) through balancing the Four Directions, an Archetypal spiritual mandala.

Aquarius, which presumably is what you mean by “the Man Sign” is now a fixed sign, not cardinal. But in any case this is poetry not description.

You don't recognize these spiritual apparatus so must rely on physical properties which lead you types to erroneous conclusions

I think it is far more likely that your imaginative fiction will produce erroneous conclusions than that anything I base on physical properties will be wrong. I prefer to stick to claims that are compatible with physical observation, as anything else is highly unreliable and dubious.

By the way, this conversation reminds me of what Lewis Carroll was talking about in Jabberwocky when he said the vorpal blade went snicker-snack – he meant that we should use logic to demolish meaningless language. Perhaps your Paxcalibur is somewhat vorpal?

such as believing astronomy's sidereal mapping replaces astrology's ancient system which were fuzzy to begin with, the ancients not having the technology for precise calculations.

Hipparchus of Rhodes used observation of the total lunar eclipse in 134 BC to calculate the exact position of the equinox and therefore the speed of precession, with a reasonable level of accuracy. It is likely that earlier astronomers in Egypt, Babylon and India also understood the speed of precession in view of its links to our sixty based clock system (2160 = 6x6x6x10). Naked eye astronomy is sufficiently precise and accurate for ancient seers to have dated the start of the Age of Pisces to the alleged life of Christ.

The Mayans did the best job of the ancients and they came to their end of the Precession of the Equinoxes last year's end which saw also the end dates for several other psychically or religiously based End Times predictions.

Really sonoman, you are just making things up. There is no clear evidence that the Mayans saw the ticking over of their Long Count odometer last year as marking a transformation point. The 2012 solstice myth is more about modern new age wishful thinking than any specific Mayan prediction. Admittedly, the movement of the solstice across the galaxy can be used to form cosmic myths, but we have no evidence that such myths date from before the hallucinogenic inspiration of the 1960s.

What this means to those who hear the Christ Aquarian Call is that for us the Age of Aquarius has begun now.

I prefer to imagine we are now in a cusp period, entering the labour pains of the birth of a new age. It is rather like John the Baptist suggested, prepare ye the way of the Lord. This means we are nearing the end of the Age of Pisces. Pretending that a new age has already begun is more wishful thinking.

God's not waiting around for the "correct" stellar arrangements according to astronomers and those astrologers trying to be astronomically correct.

Now who was it who said ‘no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.” I think it is better to assess/invent what God may be thinking on the basis of science.

Yet even there if you check, Robert, you will find dispute among professional astrologers re the beginning date for the Age of Aquarius.

I have studied this topic of zodiac ages in some detail. Unfortunately most astrologers are like sonoman, engaging more in wishful ideas than scientific evidence.

Conventionally, an Age was estimated as 2160 years. In fact one twelfth of the precession period is 2147 years. 2147 years is twelve times 178.9 years, the period of gas giant conjunctions that drives the wave function of the solar system. I know that sounds obscure, but it is pure science, suggesting an orbital resonance between zodiac ages and the integrating structure of the solar system seen in the position of the sun against the centre of mass. But this apparent resonance does not give any indication of when an age starts and ends, or whether history unfolds in ages as the period of the eternal recurrence of the same, another idea I find appealing.

Where it gets interesting again is that we can place this whole cosmology of precession against the science of earth’s orbital climate cycles as discovered by Milankovitch. What we see, from orbital physics confirmed by ice core and sediment data, is that the precession is the main driver of the 21,600 year ice age cycle. The coldest point of the cycle is when the northern winter solstice is close to the sun (perihelion point) and the warmest point in the cycle is when the summer solstice is closest to the sun. Because of the links to other orbital cycles with duration up to 400,000 years, we are now in a longer interglacial that began ten thousand years ago with the Holocene, when the summer solstice was last at perihelion. The winter solstice passed perihelion in 1246 AD, and the perihelion has since advanced to about 3 January, on its ten thousand year march to what the vedics might imagine as the next golden age.

What this Milankovitch Cycle data about the earth’s slow light and dark oscillation shows is that if we want to understand precession against real orbital mechanics then one twelfth of the glacial light and dark cycle of 21,600 years is 1800 years. As well, there is no real change around the time of Christ that indicates a dynamic turning point.

So the Age of Pisces is pure imagination, overlaid on the real orbital climate change driven by precession. But it is real imagination, since it seems that the myth of Christ as Alpha and Omega, like numerous other Biblical Myths, maps elegantly on to the movement of the equinox across the line of stars at the boundary between Aries and Pisces as the cosmic skeleton that was enfleshed with the fictional story of Jesus of Nazareth.

I say as a prophesy bearer for the Spirit of Christ in the Age of Aquarius, as one with sun in Aquarius and rising sign Aquarius, the Age of Aquarius begins now and that the Collective Unconscious trumps the material universe in psychic power.

Evidence trumps declaration. Who is to know sonoman if your prophecy is accurate, since you present it in terms of word salad rather than evidence?

If you're not an Aquarian, if you haven't heard the Christ Aquarian Call, you don't have any authority to override all of us who have entered New Age consciousness.

Authority should be grounded in evidence and logic. We should accept what evidence indicates, rather than make stuff up.

You're on the Other Side in the Aquariana Divide, stuck in Piscean Age separate fish where only one of them gets the Living Waters juice from Aquarius' urn.

I think you might have misread your picture. The water flowing from the urn of Aquarius goes to the southern fish, which is a completely separate constellation from the zodiac sign of Pisces, which is on the right of the picture. The zodiac line is the dashed line going across the upper part of the picture above Aquarius’ backside, from Capricorn on the left to Pisces on the right. We can date this picture to several hundred years ago, since the celestial equator is the diagonal line going from the head of Aquarius across to Pisces, and it has now shifted to nearer the circle of stars behind the fish on the right of the picture.

[Dexter]

It's an astrology showdown!

I think there should be a rap battle.

[geo]

Conventionally, an Age was estimated as 2160 years. In fact one twelfth of the precession period is 2147 years. 2147 years is twelve times 178.9 years, the period of gas giant conjunctions that drives the wave function of the solar system. I know that sounds obscure, but it is pure science, suggesting an orbital resonance between zodiac ages and the integrating structure of the solar system seen in the position of the sun against the centre of mass. But this apparent resonance does not give any indication of when an age starts and ends, or whether history unfolds in ages as the period of the eternal recurrence of the same, another idea I find appealing.

Forgive me for interrupting. Selecting one item from the previous post to see if I can understand what you're saying. If you don't mind, what does the bolded sentence mean? What is a gas giant conjunction? Describe this "wave function" of the solar system.

[ant]

Robert wrote:

Sonoman, my approach to astrology is purely scientific.

Conventionally, an Age was estimated as 2160 years. In fact one twelfth of the precession period is 2147 years. 2147 years is twelve times 178.9 years, the period of gas giant conjunctions that drives the wave function of the solar system. I know that sounds obscure, but it is pure science,

What scientific evidence can you present for "the wave function of the solar system," Robert?


Even I must say that this is quite bizarre.