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"Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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Vishnu
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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DWill wrote:I wonder what makes a miracle seem to have content that makes it a candidate. There has to be a criterion
Well, for me the criterion for suspecting a certain miracle or event in the Bible might be allegorical is that several are paralleled by earlier Greek and Egyptian myths, and those Greeks and Egyptians had no problem making it known that their myths were indeed allegory for natural phenomenon. So when the originators of the mythic theme admit they made it up as natural allegory, and then tracings of those same myths turn up in Christian literature, I don't think it's unreasonable to suppose those tracings are allegorical as well.

One quick example is that several Greek writers such as Diodorus and Cicero explained that the death, dismemberment, and resurrection of Dionysus was just an allegory for the plucking (dismemberment) and crushing of grapes for wine, and then the same vine grows new grapes, i.e. is restored or resurrected, at the following year's harvest season.
Those authors, then, who use the phenomena of nature to explain this god and call the fruit of the vine "Dionysus" speak like this: The earth brought forth of itself the vine at the same time with the other plants and it was not originally planted by some man who discovered it. And they allege as proof of this fact that to this day vines grow wild in many regions and bear fruit quite similar to that of plants which are tended by the experienced hand of man. Furthermore, the early men have given Dionysus the name of "Dimetor," reckoning it as a single and first birth when the plant is set in the ground and begins to grow, and as a second birth when it becomes laden with fruit and ripens its clusters, the god, therefore, being considered as having been born once from the earth and again from the vine. And though the writers of myths have handed down the account of a third birth as well, at which, as they say, the Sons of Gaia tore to pieces the god, who was a son of Zeus and Demeter, and boiled him, but his members were brought together again by Demeter and he experienced a new birth as if for the first time, such accounts as this they trace back to certain causes found in nature. For he is considered to be the son of Zeus and Demeter, they hold, by reason of the fact that the vine gets its growth both from the earth and from rains and so bears as its fruit the wine which is pressed out from the clusters of grapes; and the statement that he was torn to pieces, while yet a youth, by the "earth-born" signifies the harvesting of the fruit by the labourers, and the boiling of his members has been worked into a myth by reason of the fact that most men boil the wine and then mix it, thereby improving its natural aroma and quality. Again, the account of his members, which the "earth-born" treated with despite, being brought together again and restored to their former natural state, shows forth that the vine, which has been stripped of its fruit and pruned at the yearly seasons, is restored by the earth to the high level of fruitfulness which it had before.
^That was written c.50 BCE, over 100 years before the first letter of the New Testament was even written. So when I read of Jesus himself using wine as an allegory for his shed blood and torn body, I can't help but be reminded of this Dionysus myth and wonder if the earliest Christians didn't have it in mind when forming their new religion.
Last edited by Vishnu on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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Robert Tulip wrote:
grizzlyman wrote:astrological and spiritualising ideologues continue to confuse our common sense with fanciful symbolic connections that suit their irrational moments of 'inspiration'. Thankfully, miracles can be rationalised within nature.
I agree that miracles can be rationalised within nature. However, that does not leave astrology and spirituality as mere ideologizing...
Sorry to give the impression that I might regard astrology or spirituality as less than genuine forms of belief. 'Spiritualizing' refers to the intellectual process of elevating an idea to a spiritual level, not to spiritual belief itself. I stated 'ideologues continue to confuse our common sense' – meaning that advocates today use allegory or symbolism indiscriminately to make vague, confusing and often irrational statements.

Context is all important: When I refer to miracles, I mean specifically the unnatural events claimed by Christianity to have happened in defiance of verifiable natural laws. Science may be unable to state absolutely that supernatural events cannot happen even though they are more than highly unlikely. However the rationale supporting my statement that 'miracles can be rationalised within nature' is contained in the eBook Miraclescam. It explains the ancient method that was used to record and communicate social history prior to the invention of writing, and outlines the root cause of the difficulties we face when trying to understand the 'reality' of miracles. The book is available at: http://www.miraclescam.com
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DWill

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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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Vishnu wrote:^That was written c.50 BCE, over 100 years before the first letter of the New Testament was even written. So when I read of Jesus himself using wine as an allegory for his shed blood and torn body, I can't help but be reminded of this Dionysus myth and wonder if the earliest Christians didn't have it in mind when forming their new religion.
Can you tell me the name of this source?
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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^Ah, yes, my apologies for the ambiguity. It is from Book 3 of the Library of History by Diodorus of Sicily.
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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grizzlyman wrote:When I refer to miracles, I mean specifically the unnatural events claimed by Christianity to have happened in defiance of verifiable natural laws.
can we pick one? i mean can you give one as a specific example?
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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I've had a certain book lying around for years, Who Wrote the New Testament, by Burton Mack. I actually decided I might read it, so I started, and it's giving me this scholar's view of what was roiling the historical waters back in the period of roughly the 2nd Century BCE to the First century CE. It's almost awesome for me to contemplate an historical panorama like this one; it inspires me with an almost religious awe. But less ecstatically, what Mack does is to explain the cultural forces that produced the New Testament in a process of social formation and myth-making. In terms of the present thread, it was interesting that Mack emphasizes the allegorzing of scripture that took place as intellectuals scrambled to give old religious traditions a currency that people who were floundering, culturally, could grab a hold of. This was a time when the models of the Greek polis and the temple society of Judaism were no longer serving their old functions, and the Roman imperium was providing no sustenance but cold administrative efficiency. Cultures were clashing, much dislocation had occurred.

Mack says that the epic of the Jews was one very popular source that people gravitated to. He says this popularity explains Philo's work of allegorizing the OT histories, making them more palatable for modern people, including gentiles. It was a question for a while, he says, whether gentiles could in fact become part of the faith, but Judaism didn't prove to be elastic on matters such as circumcision and the hundreds of laws of daily living.

I know you're wondering: does Mack think Jesus was historical? He doesn't make that an issue, but he does refer to the man. He says that we know little about him and that clearly whatever man existed has been fully mythologized. He refers to many Jesus groups and to collections of sayings by Jesus, which due their character of being often rather homely sayings, may incline Mack to think someone actually said such things. But I think that issue doesn't have a bearing on the history of myth-making Mack offers. I've thought, too, that whether Jesus began as a man in a time and place or not, isn't very relevant when we all accept that the Jesus of the NT is indeed a myth. If we do not all accept that, it begins to matter.
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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youkrst wrote:
grizzlyman wrote:When I refer to miracles, I mean specifically the unnatural events claimed by Christianity to have happened in defiance of verifiable natural laws.
can we pick one? i mean can you give one as a specific example?
Water into Wine (John 2: 1-11)

Water being changed/poured into wine can represent transformation from one ideological state to another. Ceremonially it might represent change in our perception of a person or a society – nonbelievers turned into believers – marriage into, or attachment to Royal lineage, and so on. It may also symbolise apotheosis or deification – the elevation by decree of someone to sainthood or divine status.

During a Catholic mass the Eucharist ceremony symbolically represents the changing (transubstantiation) of the host and wine into the Flesh and blood of Christ. The change is not physical, it is a perceptual change that is imagined only in the human mind and is entirely dependant on ones belief. The ceremony reinforces a congregation's acceptance of Christian belief.

Turning plain water into wine absent the required ingredients and due processing is not possible. The water and wine are symbols and the story an allegory.
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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absolutely, couldn't agree more grizzly!

i remember once making a far inferior stab at decoding the same miracle as metaphor here on this very board, so how refreshing all these months later to read another poster doing a far more succinct job of it, my appreciation to you.
grizzlyman wrote:The water and wine are symbols and the story an allegory.
a hearty and rather loud amen to that my brother. :D

lead to gold
water to wine

transformation of consciousness

god knows i love this stuff ! (not you yahweh, sit down and behave yourself)
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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DWill wrote: I've thought, too, that whether Jesus began as a man in a time and place or not, isn't very relevant when we all accept that the Jesus of the NT is indeed a myth. If we do not all accept that, it begins to matter.
yes indeedy DWill, myth is metaphor. you remind me again of Hitch's blurb on "socrates".

haven't we all experienced a little "death" and "resurrection" from time to time.

but to think that ones salvation depends on some guy wandering around palestine 2000 years ago would be quaintly funny if only the consequences hadn't been so dire. imagine a race of supposedly intelligent apes being dumb enough to mistake allegory for history!

viva la non-literal interpretation.

verily all the gods and godesses are in you.
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Re: "Bible miracles are allegorical". What does that really mean?

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I think I might have a little more to say about Mack's book. I'm finding it fascinating; he gets down to the historical nitty gritty at times. His purpose it to make us see that myth-making has a history, that it's done by communities over time in accordance with their own needs or vision of the society they want. On thing I get from him so far that might be contra mythicism (but maybe not) is that the lack of mentions of any Jesus by contemporaries is only to be expected. The Gospels and other writings don't reflect claims that were made about Jesus in the historical setting of those stories. The claims of his influence and popularity and the supernatural mythologizing were added in gradually. So, truly, it doesn't matter whether there might have been a teacher-man named Jesus whose name was taken up by a number of groups who wanted to break off from the dominant culture and religion. It wasn't anything like a personality cult; there was initially little concern with the biographical details of an actual man. Jesus was different things to different groups.
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