Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

[ant]

He takes a line here and a line there from the gospels and fits it into his view of things.

Scriptural cherry picking.

Pick out scriptural verse that agrees with your slant and presto! you've proven yourself right!!

Same tactic with history.


Good post, Flann.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths.

Hello Gnostic Bishop.
I'm wondering what myths you are referring to? The gospels are set in real historical time and geographical locations unlike pagan myths. The pagan parallels idea has been well debunked many times. There are similarities which you would expect with religions but the parallels fail in any real sense.
I listened to Wells on the video you linked. Poor exegesis.He takes a line here and a line there from the gospels and fits it into his view of things. For instance he says;Jesus is a son of God not the son of God.He ignores clear references in the same gospel to Jesus as the only begotten son of God. In the Greek monogneas.
That's fairly typical of his overall approach.
I'm going to provide a link to a fairly brief example of the debunking of the pagan parallels in the gospels notions. Chris White refuting D.M.Murdock aka Acharya S. There's much more debunking out there but this is a sample.
And just to respond to your view which seems to be that Jesus didn't exist, a longer one by historian Paul Maier on historical evidences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmHMKn8is7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAN3kQHTKWI

Thanks for this. I will check those links as time permits.

God is said to be all-powerful.

If he can only reproduce the one begotten son or if he cannot reproduce true at all, then he is not all powerful is he?

As to the moral implication for a real Jesus whose Father choses to murder instead of just finding a moral way to forgive us. Please read on.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.

Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

As above so below.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?

That is what a good God would do.

Regards
DL

P.S. We can likely never know if the biblical Jesus was real or not but we can gain insight from discussing the morality of human sacrifice as somehow being good justice. Care to chat morals?

[Flann 5]

Hi Gnostic Bishop,
Thanks for your reply. I'm questioning the foundations of your beliefs. It seems to be gnosticism with a particular slant on the gospels as myths. That's why I asked what myths you were referring to.
You seem to want to avoid the question of historicity which is a major premise for you. That Jesus did not exist and the gospels are myths.

As to the moral implication for a real Jesus whose Father choses to murder instead of just finding a moral way to forgive us.

I think this is not what is taught in scripture and distorts what is actually there. Jesus says in the gospel; "I lay down my life of myself,no one takes it from me." To characterise it as murder by the Father is a gross distortion of the kind Hitchens was prone to.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Absolutely right, but if we read scripture right we see that Christ's death was voluntary,not that one day the Father decided to murder him. That's the key distinction. If the Father did just murder him against his will I would agree with you.

The trouble is from a biblical perspective none of us is righteous and if you are going to face God on the basis of your righteousness you have a problem.
Let me know what myths you are talking about. Thanks.

[ant]

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the O.T. says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason with God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths.

We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses.

Regards
DL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O1_3zBUKM8

Hi and welcome to BT.


Please share your worldview with us.

Post edited to remove trolling. Don't add it back, Ant.

[Movie Nerd]

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths.

Hello Gnostic Bishop.
I'm wondering what myths you are referring to? The gospels are set in real historical time and geographical locations unlike pagan myths. The pagan parallels idea has been well debunked many times. There are similarities which you would expect with religions but the parallels fail in any real sense.
I listened to Wells on the video you linked. Poor exegesis.He takes a line here and a line there from the gospels and fits it into his view of things. For instance he says;Jesus is a son of God not the son of God.He ignores clear references in the same gospel to Jesus as the only begotten son of God. In the Greek monogneas.
That's fairly typical of his overall approach.
I'm going to provide a link to a fairly brief example of the debunking of the pagan parallels in the gospels notions. Chris White refuting D.M.Murdock aka Acharya S. There's much more debunking out there but this is a sample.
And just to respond to your view which seems to be that Jesus didn't exist, a longer one by historian Paul Maier on historical evidences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmHMKn8is7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAN3kQHTKWI

Thanks for this. I will check those links as time permits.

God is said to be all-powerful.

If he can only reproduce the one begotten son or if he cannot reproduce true at all, then he is not all powerful is he?

As to the moral implication for a real Jesus whose Father choses to murder instead of just finding a moral way to forgive us. Please read on.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.

Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

As above so below.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?

That is what a good God would do.

Regards
DL

P.S. We can likely never know if the biblical Jesus was real or not but we can gain insight from discussing the morality of human sacrifice as somehow being good justice. Care to chat morals?

Given that God is supposedly all-powerful (as He is written in the Bible, since that's the God we're discussing), then would it be possible that our limited, manmade logic wouldn't be able to consider the boundaries, or lack of boundaries, of his power? I've heard the idea discussed that the Bible wasn't necessarily written by God, but written by men (and women) and inspired by God. Which would mean we have the truth of God as told by human beings in their limited vocbulary, and through their finite experiences and understanding. This could inhibit how we view God's potence.

All of this is just opinionated drivel coming from my mouth, mind you. I know no more than the next guy.

[Chris OConnor]

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Exactly. The idea that God the father had his own son tortured and murdered is disgusting and raw evil. If any of us had our own sons tortured and killed we'd be considered immoral and evil. Why do Christians give God a free pass on this horrific behavior?

My answer: because it simply never happened. Ancient nomadic desert dwellers made up that myth - or borrowed it from other myths.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Well said, Gnostic Bishop. Yet this is exactly what Christians believe when they believe God had his son killed for our sins. Makes no sense and it is beyond immoral.

As above so below.

The trailer looked good.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Again, great point. A loving God wouldn't do a great deal found in both the OT and NT. Then again, "God works in mysterious ways," so perhaps we don't understand his higher morality when he has innocent babies slaughtered.

[Movie Nerd]

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Exactly. The idea that God the father had his own son tortured and murdered is disgusting and raw evil. If any of us had our own sons tortured and killed we'd be considered immoral and evil. Why do Christians give God a free pass on this horrific behavior?

My answer: because it simply never happened. Ancient nomadic desert dwellers made up that myth - or borrowed it from other myths.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Well said, Gnostic Bishop. Yet this is exactly what Christians believe when they believe God had his son killed for our sins. Makes no sense and it is beyond immoral.

As above so below.

The trailer looked good.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Again, great point. A loving God wouldn't do a great deal found in both the OT and NT. Then again, "God works in mysterious ways," so perhaps we don't understand his higher morality when he has innocent babies slaughtered.

I've always interpreted the Father and Son thing as the Hero's sacrifice as oposed to some horrific thing. I don't know why.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Hi Gnostic Bishop,
Thanks for your reply. I'm questioning the foundations of your beliefs. It seems to be gnosticism with a particular slant on the gospels as myths. That's why I asked what myths you were referring to.
You seem to want to avoid the question of historicity which is a major premise for you. That Jesus did not exist and the gospels are myths.

As to the moral implication for a real Jesus whose Father choses to murder instead of just finding a moral way to forgive us.

I think this is not what is taught in scripture and distorts what is actually there. Jesus says in the gospel; "I lay down my life of myself,no one takes it from me." To characterise it as murder by the Father is a gross distortion of the kind Hitchens was prone to.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Absolutely right, but if we read scripture right we see that Christ's death was voluntary,not that one day the Father decided to murder him. That's the key distinction. If the Father did just murder him against his will I would agree with you.

The trouble is from a biblical perspective none of us is righteous and if you are going to face God on the basis of your righteousness you have a problem.
Let me know what myths you are talking about. Thanks.

You use the convenient quote to justify your immorality.

Try this one. I do my Fathers will and not my own.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

You also think that it is justice to punish man for infinity when he has sined in a finite world.

Both of those immoral positions are the tip of why I will never be a Christian and will always be a Gnostic Christian.

If you are comfortable in your immorality then stay where you are.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

[


Hi and welcome to BT.


Please share your worldview with us.

]

Let me give you two short links. If they interest you the longer third might as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, then you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. It is to become more fully human.

Being a Gnostic Christian, this following represents to some extent my religious views.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

1. The only proper religion for mankind is humanity itself, for it is from this humanity that God first evolved.
God, who is our future, came from humans, who are Their past.

2. God is a glorified and exalted human being.

We also do not believe in anything with woo. Woo, fantasy, miracles and magic are for immoral Christians who need them to justify their immorality.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Exactly. The idea that God the father had his own son tortured and murdered is disgusting and raw evil. If any of us had our own sons tortured and killed we'd be considered immoral and evil. Why do Christians give God a free pass on this horrific behavior?

My answer: because it simply never happened. Ancient nomadic desert dwellers made up that myth - or borrowed it from other myths.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Well said, Gnostic Bishop. Yet this is exactly what Christians believe when they believe God had his son killed for our sins. Makes no sense and it is beyond immoral.

As above so below.

The trailer looked good.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Again, great point. A loving God wouldn't do a great deal found in both the OT and NT. Then again, "God works in mysterious ways," so perhaps we don't understand his higher morality when he has innocent babies slaughtered.

Thanks for the agreement.

My Godhead is not the woo filled creator God of scripture but be the story real or not, it is the Christian morality that I judge viewed through their beliefs and what they say that I judge.

Even if their God did as written up, it is the fact that Christians have embrace that immorality that makes it an immoral religion.

We are not to place another name above God for morality yet most of the world has given his morality a thumbs down as we punish the guilty instead of the innocent.

If God cannot pass the test of as above so below, then he is not a worthy God.

Regards
DL