Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

[Chris OConnor]

Your posts have been repeated attempts to attack and undermine Christianity.

This sort of response/attitude I find very frustrating. Your choice of words is by design meant to cast Gnostic Bishop in an unfavorable light. I don't see him attempting to "attack" or "undermine" Christianity. He is making extremely solid arguments for why certain ideas and doctrines in Christianity are illogical and immoral. You should thank him for helping you think more critically about your beliefs. Critical examination with an open mind is how we rid ourselves of erroneous beliefs. Please tell me the truth matters to you.

In the world of science can you imagine Scientist A complaining that Scientist B keeps trying to "attack" and "undermine" his ideas? Of course he does! The entire goal of science is to get to the truth. If Scientist B can expose weaknesses then Scientist A has some work to do on his ideas, right?

Why is it different with religion? Gnostic Bishop is showing you some pretty blatant examples of immoral and outright evil within the Christian religion. Don't shoot the messenger. It is your religion that has the problems. Revise it.

[Flann 5]

Hi Chris,
My problem is that he refuses to even attempt to substantiate his assertions on historicity and the gospels being myths.
I find his musings on morality and justice rambling and incoherent.
And thanks for your editorially impartial assessment of the Barker/White debate.
Barker won? If you say so Chris.
Seriously though. it's a real failing of the mythicists to explain how mono theistic Jews would have any time for Pagan myths. The new testament itself rejects such myths and polytheism.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

To be honest with you Bishop, I'm finding it hard to make sense of your replies.You seem to be saying there are evolutionary imperatives which dictate human behaviours.
Could Milosovic then plead evolutionary impulses for his crimes? Like the Nazi's we needed more living space for our race one. In your answer to my question about Saddam and Milosevic and how God should judge them, your conclusion was that God should either absolve or condemn everyone. What kind of basis for justice is that? By analogy the court should absolve or condemn Milosevic,the jury, press and spectators at his trial.

The gnostic gospels came later than the Christian ones. Do a bit of scholarly research instead of buying into conspiracy theories such as Joseph Atwill's and Acharya S which are only good if you want to watch some comedy.

Your posts have been repeated attempts to attack and undermine Christianity. There's Freke and Gandy on gnosticism and mythic explanations of the gospels. Well's with his warped take on the gospel and dislike of mainstream Christianity. The guy with his Jesus is a moral monster spiel and so on.
You don't attempt seriously to justify your myths claim and think that a throwaway line about talking animals and seven headed monsters is sufficient.Why do you believe Jesus was not a real historical person?
You make assertions but don't support them.The pagan myths parallels thesis has been debunked.Why should I accept it on your assertion?
You seem to have some issue with authoritarian Dads. O.K. but that's not evidence for the non historicity of Jesus or that the gospels are myths.

I separated things because you were mixing too many issues and you have done the same again without dealing with anything.

Try again or not. I will not be drawn into a discussion about what neither one of us can prove. If you want to prove Jesus lived then you will have to do it by analysis of his moral tenets.

If you wish to do so, start an O.P.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Hi Chris,
My problem is that he refuses to even attempt to substantiate his assertions on historicity and the gospels being myths.
I find his musings on morality and justice rambling and incoherent.
And thanks for your editorially impartial assessment of the Barker/White debate.
Barker won? If you say so Chris.
Seriously though. it's a real failing of the mythicists to explain how mono theistic Jews would have any time for Pagan myths. The new testament itself rejects such myths and polytheism.

LOL. One word. Asherah.

Regards
DL

[Flann 5]

Try again or not. I will not be drawn into a discussion about what neither one of us can prove. If you want to prove Jesus lived then you will have to do it by analysis of his moral tenets.

It doesn't stop you making assertions that the gospels are myths and linking Freke with his there's no historical Jesus assertions.
I suppose historians determine the historicity of people by their moral tenets?
I may get back to you on the Jesus Madman stuff.
I can't blame you for not producing your mythicist and conspiracy theory based ideas to back up your assertions though.
When were the gnostic gospels written? What's the scholarship here?

[Chris OConnor]

Flann 5, I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with Gnostic Bishop on the assertion that the Gospels are "myth." When I hear the word "myth" I think of a tale written purposely to tell a story or convey a message. Myths aren't meant to be taken literally. A myth is fiction and known to be fiction. Gnostic may think they are myths and he may be right. I'm simply too ignorant of the Gospels and history of the Bible to be able to add an intelligent opinion.

My opinion of 100% of the supernatural magical woo in the Bible is that it is simply bullshit. I'm so confident of this that I would gamble my very life this very minute with no hesitation or concern. There is absolutely not one iota of chance of the following...

1. Jesus was the son of God
2. A loving, all-knowing and all-powerful God exists
3. Jesus rose from the dead
4. Jesus walked on water
5. Adam and Eve existed
6. Our planet is only around 6,000 years old
7. A global flood occurred

I could go on and on and on. I'd run out of ink/pixels. The Bible is chock-full of lies, myths, deception, raw evil, ignorance and contradictions.

So were the gospels created as myths and meant to be taken as myths? I don't know. Ask someone more knowledgeable of the history of the Bible.

But one thing is for certain. The Gospels are not accurate. They cannot be because they tell stories that are physically and logically impossible.

[Chris OConnor]

Flann 5 , please don't make the mistake of thinking I'm supporting Bishop entirely. So far what he has said about morality and evolution has been spot on. So I'm in agreement with him so far. If Gnostic continues to interact and share more about Gnostic Christianity I have a sneaking suspicion our agreement will soon end. But I could be wrong. I know nothing of Gnosticism. The moment Gnostic argues for and defends the existence of ANY sort of deity we'll enter the zone of disagreement. But as of right now he's making a lot more sense in my opinion.

EDIT:

Flann 5, I'm probably not being fair with you and I apologize. I'm so upset with Ant right now that I'm taking it out on you. You and Ant do appear to be quite in-sync on the forums and it is easy to associate you with him. And that just isn't fair. So I again apologize.

[Flann 5]

My opinion of 100% of the supernatural magical woo in the Bible is that it is simply bullshit. I'm so confident of this that I would gamble my very life this very minute with no hesitation or concern.

I asked a simple question.
How might a just God, who is the impartial judge of all, acquit Saddam and Milosevic (and you can add in others from Hitchen's speech if you like)and remain just?
Do you think I got a straight answer to this question? I think everyone knows what the answer is.
If God exists the supernatural and miraculous is entirely possible. If you believe God does not exist then obviously it is not. That's the bottom line.
There is evidence for an historical Christ and the setting is historic in time and geography and the writers claim to be writing historical biography and one is claimed as eyewitness account.
It's very different to the Greek pantheon and Roman and other pagan accounts.

[Flann 5]

Flann 5, I'm probably not being fair with you and I apologize. I'm so upset with Ant right now that I'm taking it out on you. You and Ant do appear to be quite in-sync on the forums and it is easy to associate you with him. And that just isn't fair. So I again apologize.

Hi Chris.
I think generally ant and I are in a minority position against more posters on the opposite side.
I do think that if someone doesn't want to divulge their personal beliefs that should be o.k. I mean ant here.
You can still debate on the substance of something and the argument can stand or fall on merit irrespective of their personal beliefs.
Thanks Chris.

[Chris OConnor]

How might a just God, who is the impartial judge of all, acquit Saddam and Milosevic (and you can add in others from Hitchen's speech if you like)and remain just?
Do you think I got a straight answer to this question? I think everyone knows what the answer is.

I'm not understanding the question so if you could reword it I'd be appreciative. Are you referring to God acquitting in heaven?