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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Flann 5 wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:For one example or modernizing, if we had know about evolution back then, we likely would not have invented the demiurge to explain people to people evil. Evolution and the fact that we must compete for resources explains evil quite well. There is even a branch of Evolutionary Theology which we buy into without any problem.
So the gnostics invented the demiurge you say? And with evolution the demiurge becomes a nonentity as gnosticism evolves. I see,thanks.
I do wonder how belief in traditional gnosticism squares with naturalistic materialism and scientific cosmology as beings such as the demiurge and archons are involved in the former.

And since Bishop abolishes these beings and it seems has no idea who wrote the four gospels, I wonder just what he bases his beliefs on. Is it the gnostic gospels or something else? Maybe you can tell us,Bishop.
I repeat that no one knows who wrote the four gospels and you admit the same in your pathetic way by not stating them. You throw stones without correcting like a child.

I admit that all Gnostic Christian scriptures are myth based.

Christians are not as honest about theirs and that gave us the Dark Ages of the mind where you still live.

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DL
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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DWill wrote:
Flann 5 wrote: So what's this all about? Here's an article from a Christian perspective looking at gnosticism and the gnostic Jesus.
http://www.equip.org/articles/gnosticis ... ian-books1
I'd read Pagels' book years and years ago, so I was glad to be able to review the basics of the topic by reading the article, which was an even-handed treatment. Gnosticism seems pretty hard to pin down, to say the least, so I can imagine that people must be able to make of the beliefs just about anything they're inclined to.

Interesting that Jesus is apparently real in the gnostic writings, that is, not merely a myth. I wonder how mythicists deal with that.
All gospels are written as if the characters were real. Gnostic myths are no different except for the fact that we know that we made them all up.

We also know why we did as shown in this first link.

We also know that many forget that fact and begin to worship the works of men as divine.
That is what screws everything up in terms of what message the myth was trying to give.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

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DL
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Movie Nerd wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:Note how they were quick to kill off the one sect that remained Universalist. Christianity and Constantine decided that free thinking was not to be allowed. They tried to kill it for 1,000 years but it failed. Except for the Abrahamic cults. Christianity and Islam.

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DL
In my experience, any dogmatic belief, whether political, religious, or simply a belief in a favorite ball, is strong enough to suppress dissent.
Dissent and free thinking.

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DL
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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As of this writing, having read through the various posts just now, I still feel I need to go back and read up on Gnosticism. I've been talking on this subject in sideways fashion, and I don't feel knowledgeable enough yet.
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Flann 5
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Robert Tulip wrote: My view is that Nazareth was invented to provide plausible deniability for Gnostic Christians who were under persecution from Rome, in order to deny membership of the proscribed Nazarene Gnostic sect. The archaeology of Nazareth strongly supports this claim of its establishment well after Christ.
One wonders why the writers of the gospels would invent an imaginary town for Jesus since they seem very familiar with well know towns and villages of the time and this accuracy of geography is a striking aspect of the gospels.
In fact Rene Salm's claims are disputed publicly by Israeli archaeologists and others and while there is not a lot of evidence there is some for Nazareth being a small town at that time. Salm himself is not an archaeologist.

Even Richard Carrier while sympathetic to the mythicist cause is reluctant to endorse this claim. I could provide the stronger positive case from such as the Israeli archaeologists but here is Carrier from an atheistic website.
http://www.debunkingchristianity.blogsp ... ce-of.html
Robert Tulip wrote:Even Jesus the Nazarene is almost certainly an ideal myth, an invented fictional character designed as avatar of the Age of Pisces, as argued especially by Frank Zindler and DM Murdock. This ideal makes complete sense of the pre-existent Logos, given that astronomers could see the movement of the spring point towards Pisces for hundreds and probably even thousands of years before Christ.
Here Robert claims that this thesis of D.M.Murdock's a.k.a. Acharya S.makes a lot of sense and is what he himself thinks is the true explanation in astrological terms of the gospels.
However this is a hopelessly worthless thesis by Murdock and here Mike Licona demonstrates why.
http://www.risenjesus.com/a-refutation- ... conspiracy

I would also ask Bishop where his divine spark comes from if there is no divinity.If you utterly invert the concept of divinity to mean human I think your divinity has no real meaning.And in evolutionary terms did the "Hobbit" have this divinity?

Finally in comparative terms how do the four gospels shape up in terms of accuracy of language.Since all scholars seem agreed they were written outside of Israel and by different authors in different places how accurate were they in the matter of names for example.
And how do the gnostic writings fare in this category?
Here's a talk by Peter J.Williams on this topic.New evidence for eyewitness accounts in the gospels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5Ylt1pBMm8
Last edited by Flann 5 on Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Flann 5 wrote:I would also ask Bishop where his divine spark comes from if there is no divinity.If you utterly invert the concept of divinity to mean human I think your divinity has no real meaning.And in evolutionary terms did the "Hobbit" have this divinity?
Wasn't the "Hobbit" a thing brought up on another topic thread? Why bring it up here? I don't understand.
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Flann 5
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Movie Nerd wrote:Wasn't the "Hobbit" a thing brought up on another topic thread? Why bring it up here? I don't understand.
Just some humour there Nerd.
Evolution being an important aspect for Bishop,I'm asking when divinity kicks into the process if you want the serious part of the question.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Flann 5 wrote:Just some humour there Nerd.
Oh ok. I'm sorry. Given some of the recent drama on the forum, Ive been a little testy.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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DWill wrote:My impression (for what such a thing is worth) is that gnosticism is no refuge for the more rationally-minded. Taken as a whole, would it be fair to say that the writings known as gnostic and not given the imprimatur of the Church contain a bewildering variety of mystical and supernatural statements? There might be the advantage DL cites, of greater acceptance of diversity, but there could also be a drawback that limits the relevance of these writings in the 21st C.
The fascinating challenge is to sort through the bewildering variety of irrational dross (including both literal and allegorical) to identify a rational seam of gold that can explain the history of the church in a way that is compatible with modern scientific knowledge and method.

The cultural evolution of Christianity cannot be explained correctly by the conventional supernatural story of incarnation and passion. But when we start to examine what are the historical facts, we encounter a paradigm in turmoil, characterised by massive disagreement.

The situation is further confused by the apologist tactic of resort to emotion, since they have a historical position of power that is unable to tolerate dissent. A prime example is the article Flann has linked by Mike Licona. His wikipedia page includes the following surprising information which helps to understand where he is coming from in criticising Gnostic views.
Wikipedia Michael Licona wrote:In a passage in his 2010 book, The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach, Michael Licona questioned the interpretation of the story of the resurrection of the saints in Matthew 27 [that they rose from their graves and wandered around Jerusalem when Jesus rose from the dead], and suggested the possibility that it might be apocalyptic imagery. This led to controversy with fellow Evangelical scholars Norman Geisler and Albert Mohler, who both accused Licona of denying the full inerrancy of the Bible in general and the gospel narratives in particular. Licona maintained that adjusting an interpretation on a text is not a denial of inerrancy.
The extant writings of Gnosticism often provide no more textual authority than the canonical orthodoxy does, but both provide abundant clues to understanding the real Gnostic origins of Christianity. We are not likely to get helpful scholarship on such topics from people who are committed to the evangelical dogma of the inerrancy of the Bible.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Movie Nerd wrote:As of this writing, having read through the various posts just now, I still feel I need to go back and read up on Gnosticism. I've been talking on this subject in sideways fashion, and I don't feel knowledgeable enough yet.
If any questions pop up as you learn, please feel free. There is a lot of false information out there.

Regards
DL
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