Can you feel the love?

[Mr. P]

Me: Does anyone responding to Bush when he starts talking nonsense thus fall into his childish manner of thinking and speaking?


Mad: So while it's an exagerration to suppose that anyone responding to Bush would automatically start pronouncing it "nukuler", the fact that we all fell into the trap of behaving as though, say, WMDs were obviously the central issue in addressing Iraq should demonstrate that, whether or not we buy their nonsense, the fact that we're willing to address it renders us vulnerable.

Watch who you include in that 'we', kay? I never bought it and what do we do in that instance...NOT address or respond to an outright lie? Yeah, that would work when the 'leader of the free word' is talking shit...aaaannyway.

It is either the choice of the parents or it is not.

Why? Why can't both life and choice be issues that pertain to the issue of abortion?

Uh...What?!

Is pro-choice also a naughty word/concept when you go to the library and want to choose what to read? Dont cast this off as trivial...

Trivial? I'm just not sure how it's pertinent. Tell me how see the issue of censorship fitting in here and I'll try to address this comment.

It is about you being able to choose for yourself what you do and what happens to your body, mind and future.

Mr. P.

[Niall001]

The very terms "Pro-choice" and "Pro-life" are used by groups who only have one political/social issue on their agenda, or at least only one that those terms were ever meant to describe.

Mr. P was linking the issue of abortion to the issue of censorship arguing that one's ability to walk in to a library and read a book is to a degree similar to choosing to have an abortion. That's why I brought up in the other issues.

[Mr. P]

Well obviously pro-lifers tend to think that killing people is a bad thing and since they believe that the developing human organism is a person, they regard that as having a bad and deadly impact on society. And abortion is - more or less - illegal here.

Well then by all means...stay 'there'. Where is there anyway...

The only person involved in an abortion is the 'potential' mother (and by extension, the 'potential' father).

Nick! That is exactly the issue. That is the point at which pro-life and pro-choice disagree! Pro-lifers are not running around claiming that people should not have an abortion because they don't like it, or they think its immoral, they're saying that it is a violation of the right to life of the human person.

Did you notice the work 'potential'...I even put it in quotes for you. There is no guarantee that the fetus will survive until childbirth. It is not a person until it can survive without aid outside of the womb IMO.

How would you two couch the matter to make it all warm and fuzzy and settle the debate?

Well personally I tended to use the terms pro-abortion and anti-abortion simply because pro-legalised abortion and anti-legalise abortion don't exactly slip off the tongue, however I've given up on that because you end upsetting pro-choice types who insist that the term doesn't adequately reflect that they aren't pro-abortion but pro-having-the-option-of-having-abortions. Now I just use pro-choice when describing pro-abortion positions and pro-life when describing all things anti-abortion.

So you are using polemic language then...so why are you arguing again?

Mr. P.

[indie]

Point taken. To me this topic is so totally derailed, and onto a subject that never ends well on forums.

If I were a moderator I would have locked it awhile ago.

[Mr. P]

The very terms "Pro-choice" and "Pro-life" are used by groups who only have one political/social issue on their agenda, or at least only one that those terms were ever meant to describe.

Mr. P was linking the issue of abortion to the issue of censorship arguing that one's ability to walk in to a library and read a book is to a degree similar to choosing to have an abortion. That's why I brought up in the other issues.

It is about one group controlling another Niall. It is about being abl to direct your own life and not have to RUIN a life because others think a few cells are a person with equal rights that we grant actual people.

Mr. P.

[Niall001]

Did you notice the work 'potential'...I even put it in quotes for you. There is no guarantee that the fetus will survive until childbirth. It is not a person until it can survive without aid outside of the womb IMO.

IMO is the most important part of that sentence. As I said earlier, the disagreement stems from the fact that people have different ways of determining what constitutes a human who should have a right to exist.

So you are using polemic language then...so why are you arguing again?
Mr. P.

I use the polemic language as a courtesy to those who get annoyed when I use more neutral terms. I'd like it if people realised that those terms were counterproductive, but until that happens, it's the lesser of two evils. Nothing derails a discussion quite like insulting someone, even when it is unintentional.

Well then by all means...stay 'there'. Where is there anyway...

Tehran.

[Mr. P]

Did you notice the work 'potential'...I even put it in quotes for you. There is no guarantee that the fetus will survive until childbirth. It is not a person until it can survive without aid outside of the womb IMO.

IMO is the most important part of that sentence. As I said earlier, the disagreement stems from the fact that people have different ways of determining what constitutes a human who should have a right to exist.

And as far as I see it, the distinction is confused between a religious and scientific definition. Religion is the emotional knee-jerk.

I repeat...

_________________________________________

New request:

Anyone in favor of not having an abortion:

Why do you think it would be better for our society to prevent people from having an abortion? Why?

Do you think it would make the world a better place or lead to more over-population problems (considering the exponential capability of human reproduction and our penchant for maintaining life past the point of what nature usually prescribes)?

Why do you feel this way about the issue of abortion?

Would you be willing to help a single mother support her baby for the length of time that child would need to grow into a contributing adult? Should the governement support the child/mother?

Do you care only about the birth, or would you take an active role in the childs development?

Mr. P.

[Niall001]

And as far as I see it, the distinction is confused between a religious and scientific definition. Religion is the emotional knee-jerk.

I haven't come across any real evidence of a direct link. What is the religious definition? What is the scientific definition?

Tehran.

I repeat...

Sorry Nick, I'm just taking the piss. You really should know by now! I'm in Ireland.

New request:

Anyone in favor of not having an abortion:

Why do you think it would be better for our society to prevent people from having an abortion? Why?

Depends what you mean by society and better really.

I believe that people have a right to life and that the developing human has a right to life that should be protected just like any other life. I haven't encountered any coherent argument as to why we should recognise the right to life of a newborn or late prenatal human and not one during early development.

Do you think it would make the world a better place or lead to more over-population problems (considering the exponential capability of human reproduction and our penchant for maintaining life past the point of what nature usually prescribes)?

If we killed off China, the rest of the world might be better off. They consume our resources, if we got rid of them, there'd be more for the rest of humanity. I doubt you'd advocate such a course of action, and it is for the same reasons that I do not advocate allowing people have abortions.

Would you be willing to help a single mother support her baby for the length of time that child would need to grow into a contributing adult? Should the governement support the child/mother?

Do you care only about the birth, or would you take an active role in the childs development?

Yes I believe in well developed social welfare systems, though that's a different subject.

[indie]

I'd still like to know what the hell any of this has to do with the subject of this thread.

You want to argue abortion? Make a damn thread for it, not derail existing ones that have nothing to do with it.

FWIW I shouldn't have indulged myself at all by posting in this topic once it turned into an abortion debate. It's a highly charged issue, and one I know intimately. In fact I regret posting the topic at all at this point. Perhaps I should stick with the coding from here on.

[Niall001]

Yup. Sometimes these things snowball.

We should have done that whole "sidebar" thing ages ago. Nobody would have posted in a thread that was actually about abortion. Is there anyway we can split off everything that came after Mad and Mr. P began discussing the terms pro-choice and pro-life?