What happens after you lose faith?

[Frank 013]

Penelope
Thank you Frank for taking the trouble to reply to me.

No sweat, this is after all one of the reasons I joined Book Talk in the first place.

Penelope
You perceive correctly that I wasn't meaning 'physical' exploring. But the exploring of various other belief systems and methods of building spiritual strength and knowledge/wisdom.

As an atheist I do see the value of "spiritual" strength and growth, but I do not see this attribute coming from faith, or gods (my personal opinion), I see this as an individual's will, discipline, resolve, and wisdom that come from within.

Penelope
If one thinks that ones own faith or denomination is absolutely correct and that all the others are wrong....then the people with religious conviction will tell you that it is wrong to question and even that other faith systems are evil.

I totally agree, and from what I have seen this seems to be one of the primary sources of intolerance that religions tend to breed.

Penelope
That can scare you and keep you in line if, like me you are inclined to be inexplicably 'intuitive',

Ah, it only scares you if you fall for it.

Penelope
I think epilepsy must have some sort of effect on its sufferers because many of them are Nuns, Monks and thinkers of all types.

I have never heard that epileptics were drawn to those types of careers, although now that you mention it the few epileptics that I have known have all been very religious people.

Penelope
So, it would seem this compulsion to search for spiritual growth is something to do with the chemicals in the brain - what a Swizzz!

Well, to be totally technical about it everything we do has something to do with the chemicals in our brains.

And by the way what is a Swizzz?

Penelope
But Frank, something must have happened to me because I couldn't have been able to laugh about that, twenty or thirty years ago.

I am glad you have managed to come to terms with your situation, of course that is part of what spiritual growth is all about... isn't it?



Later

[Penelope]

Swizz - Oh dear, Frank - that is me showing my age - it is the word we used when I was a little girl - if something lets us down, or we are disappointed.

I have just consulted with my other half and we both think it comes from the word - Swindle -

We have been married for 44 years come October (I was only 18 years old though - I hasten to add), he is taking me out for Valentines Day tonight, so that we avoid the crush (the crowds).

[Frank 013]

Married for 44 years... That is AWESOME!

Have a great time tonight!

Later

[jales4]

Hi everyone,

Just recently I have picked up the book Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell and it has given me an extremely different outlook.

I've looked this up on Amazon to see what it is about. I'll check with my local library and see if I can inter-library loan it. Thanks for the recommendation.

Jan.

[jales4]

[quote="Robert Tulip"]There is something repugnant about teaching children claims that have been proven to be scientifically false, and confusing them by asserting these traditional claims are true. If that is faith

[jales4]

Hi,

I've been away, and am catching up on the conversations. Sorry for so many posts in a row.

It was an Anglican Bishop who pointed out to me in an analogy, that a little child will sit in the corner of a room scared to move if he is in that room alone. If his Mother is in there with him he will wander around and enjoy exploring. That is how it has been for me. Once I stopped wondering where God was or who, once I just accepted that Jesus said 'Think of Him as your Father'. Then I could stop shivering in the corner and explore.

For me, the exact opposite happened. I shivered thinking I wasn't 'good' enough. Wasn't following all the rules. Didn't believe as much as I should. God offered no comfort to 'explore' - because bad stuff happens to Christians just as much as it happens to non-Christians.

Jan.

[Robert Tulip]

...most of the things that I believe (with conviction) needed to be shown to me first. [...] faith does not have anything to do with evidence; it appears to be a firm convicted belief in spite of the lack of any type of verifiable support.[...]his name is Koala Jack and he lives in a zoo just outside of Sydney Australia. [...]I see religious faith (as) an acceptance of some belief without question that blocks the exploration into that belief. I also believe that that is its primary purpose. Now; it sounds like you allow yourself the freedom to explore and I think that is a good thing. But I think you will find that exploring and questioning those beliefs is not widely condoned in the Christian community. Ask a church leader these types of questions and you will be offered "guidance" or "direction". It is just another form of control if you ask me. Later

Hi Frank, this is good stuff. I hope you enjoyed your visit to Sydney. I grew up in Epping, fairly close to the West Pennant Hills Koala Park, which was established as a concentration camp when Sydney's suburbs invaded the koala's habitat in the 1960s. Much as Australia pioneered the use of concentration camps for aboriginal people. Sorry.

Faith versus reason, belief versus scientific knowledge, is in a way the biggest theme in philosophy. My view is that an evidence based faith is possible, but that it requires an entire reformulation of the meaning of faith.

Jesus said 'your will be done on earth as in heaven'. Scientifically, this prayer requires that we form a vision of a perfect world, and seek to transform our planet along those lines. The call to make all things new through a new heaven and new earth is about applying the transformative vision of love through evidence based policy.

Here is new fable which helps to explain what I mean. When Uranus was discovered in 1781, it was a signpost for a Promethean revolution in industrial innovation and political liberty. When Neptune was discovered in 1846 we saw the rise of chemistry and globalization by sail. Pluto in 1931 marked the atomic age. In 2003, a new planet was discovered, variously known as Eris, Lila or Xena http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/.

Following Dane Rudhyar's call to use the name Proserpine, I think of this planet as Persephone. My reason is mythic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone tells the myth of Persephone's capture by Pluto, plunging the world into eternal winter, and how the god of death tricked her to eat four pomegranate seeds before Hermes could bring her back to earth, causing one month of winter for each seed.

My interpretation reads this myth in planetary terms. The one-third/winter represents the land and the two-thirds/summer represents the oceans, which cover 71% of our planet. Under the atomic rule of Pluto, we are on a destructive path of seeing our traditional land-based civilization as the only way to live - viewing the one-third as the whole even though it is destroying our planet. Returning to life with Persephone, humanity will follow the path of the whales to colonise the two-thirds world covered by the oceans, not evolving to swim but by living on top of fresh water dams as I described briefly at www.ascm.org.au/jgOnline/jg2007Autumn.pdf. The next century will be a period of recovery from the destructive limited controlling vision of recent times. The four seeds eaten by Persephone represent our ties to the earth, but the eight months of summery freedom will start a new Aquarian age, with an ocean-based civilization that will allow the earth to recover.

I link this fable to a scientifically possible interpretation of the ideas of Jesus as I described briefly at Global Resurrection

[Frank 013]

Hey RT,

I did not know you were from Australia, I really enjoyed my trip there, beautiful country.

RT
Hi Frank, this is good stuff. I hope you enjoyed your visit to Sydney.

Yea it was very cool; I spent a month in Australia traveling all over the central and eastern parts of the country. While I was there I also climbed Ayres rock and scuba dove the Great Barrier Reef, overall a great experience!

RT
I grew up in Epping, fairly close to the West Pennant Hills Koala Park, which was established as a concentration camp when Sydney's suburbs invaded the koala's habitat in the 1960s. Much as Australia pioneered the use of concentration camps for aboriginal people. Sorry.

Every country seems to have these dark chapters in their history, but we can't change the past, just learn from it.

RT
Faith versus reason, belief versus scientific knowledge, is in a way the biggest theme in philosophy. My view is that an evidence based faith is possible, but that it requires an entire reformulation of the meaning of faith.

I do not really see the point of changing the definition of the term faith to support a reasonable belief system.

RT
Jesus said 'your will be done on earth as in heaven'. Scientifically, this prayer requires that we form a vision of a perfect world, and seek to transform our planet along those lines.

Scientifically; you quoted a (likely fictional) character in a very old, very flawed book. Nothing is required of the reader and interpretation is not a scientific process.

Interpretively; many different interpretations have been and are made from this verse.

If someone wants to have religious faith and still manage to trust science that is fine, I personally find them to be incompatible.

As far as biblical interpretation is concerned... the Bible is very falsifiable and its passages have been shown to be easy to manipulate into many different meanings both good and evil. Your interpretation (while original) does not change the fact that many other interpretations are undoubtedly going to be made, not all of them for the common good.

Later

[Penelope]

What a brilliant and interesting thread this is!!! I award you all good karma points!!!! Well, virtual Karma points.

Quote:
RT
Faith versus reason, belief versus scientific knowledge, is in a way the biggest theme in philosophy. My view is that an evidence based faith is possible, but that it requires an entire reformulation of the meaning of faith.

I think the Bible is true in the same way as Shakespeare is true - the stories are not true - but it tells the truth about human nature. One of the things to be admired about it (and I do think there is a lot NOT to admire) is that most of the books in the Bible are written by Jews about their laws, but many are about their history. And I do find they tell the truth 'warts and all'. King David is an example of a great King but they record faithfully his weaknesses and sins.

However, I have had a long and happy marriage to a naturally kind and compassionate man (don't tell him I said so). But he is an atheist and will have no truck with religion, sprituality etc. He is, however, a scientist by profession (retired now) and an historian by nature. I eventually came to the conclusion that his main life's question is 'HOW'. He goes to SciBar - which gives lectures on astro physics, Quantum Theory, and mind boggling theories in general, because he wants to know 'how' everything works. I have been a Bookseller (Arty Farty Person) most of my adult life and my main life's question is 'WHY'. Why are we here? So I go to meditate with the Buddhist Nuns. I love the Dylan Thomas poem about the little boy who received a book for christmas which old him everything you could want to know about wasps - except 'Why'? It is called 'A Child's Christmas in Wales' and I do commend it.

[Penelope]

Wrt your lovely atavar with the Koala Frank.

I just want to post this picture of my youngest son who works with birds of prey and is a falconer.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff15 ... nsmoke.jpg

If this link works - you can accuse me of oneupmanship!!!

If it doesn't I'll try another way in a minute.