Taking Control

[President Camacho]

T,

bush won both elections by barely a legal margin. Some are questioning if he was ever truly the legally elected president. In both elections the voter turnout was probably the worst, statistically speaking, in history.

The pulse of America has quickened quite a bit since we made OUR mistake which happened to affect every country on the globe. Please keep an eye on how many people are registered to vote during this presidential election. How many people are voting republican? How many people are voting for the status quo or for change? I think you'll like what you see. There is more involvement now. Just look at how much coverage the democrats are getting over the republican candidate. Progress is coming.

[Penelope]

I am so boring.....got married to lovely man...had kids, became grandma!

It all seemed so simple then.....to quote the corney song.

Just as a by-the-way. Some of our most sensitive artists, writers, poets and, it must be said, politicians, were homosexual.

Some of our very great comedians...still are.

At the moment, I feel the world needs comedians....don't you?

[Ophelia]

You have a knack for creating fascinating discussions Mr President (and I'm sure your invitation at the ball is well-desereved. Just direct your chauffeur to ask for "le Chateau" on arrival).

President C wrote:

Humans have come quite a long way because of how we are able to build on our collective knowledge. Common sense yesterday is no longer common sense today. Sometimes knowledge is gained and sometimes it is lost. Though, it's hard to dispute that progress has been made.

Our existence and social development as a species reminds me of the stock market. It has its ups and downs but is forever moving in an upward trend.

Some see this as a maturing of our species and its societies. We are learning and growing smarter with every new generation. Although there will be 'dips' and not every individual will be a "winner", we will be growing wiser as a species (upward trend).

Lovely idea, and wise.
Whenever I feel like raving about some prophecy worshippers or feel discouraged about the human race I'll try to think of this.

The pulse of America has quickened quite a bit since we made OUR mistake which happened to affect every country on the globe. Please keep an eye on how many people are registered to vote during this presidential election. How many people are voting republican? How many people are voting for the status quo or for change? I think you'll like what you see. There is more involvement now. Just look at how much coverage the democrats are getting over the republican candidate. Progress is coming.

Now, Mr President, just when you had almost convinced me to be optimistic, you go too far. I was just beginning to think in global terms, humanity, yes, hmm...

But you meant , learning from one's mistakes, as in the US learning as well??!!!:eek:
Sorry, for the moment I won't suspend disbelief that far.

[President Camacho]

Good for you Ophelia!

I am the same way! Once burned, twice learned!

[Theomanic]

Prez: It's interesting to comment that on one hand, the politicians should be more informed about their votes, but on the other hand admit you yourself don't care about certain issues because of squeamishness.

As to the relevancy of those issues; no, they don't directly relate to putting clothes on ones back, but just because they don't affect you personally don't mean they're not important. These issues are not gaining press simply because they're "scandalous", but because they deal with human rights.

As you're a man, I can see how pregnancy and the rights of the mother versus the rights of the fetus wouldn't seem particularly relevant to you. But they are extremely important: literally a matter of life and death. To dismiss it because it is related to sex, and doesn't "put clothes on your back" is extreme, to say the least.

And honestly, "non-pertinent issues such a homosexuality"? People who are homosexual want the same rights as straight people. This is not a minor wish. By not giving homosexuals the same rights, it delegates them to being a "lower" class of individual. That is a very important issue. And very pertinent to homosexual people.

None of those issues should be kept secret. Peoples personal choices should be their own business, but the issues are very important. Just because you don't find them relevant to you doesn't mean they have no relevance. Even calling the right for gay people to marry "scandalous" indicates a certain thought process on your part. It certainly doesn't seem scandalous to me.

As to the comment that Bush barely won both elections: that argument always irks me. As if getting 51% of the vote means only 30 people voted for him. Isn't it more like 30+ million people? Gee, is that all. And really, he won. Dickering over margins is irrelevant.

Pen: The world always needs comedians. Just like the king always needed to have a jester around to show him of his errors.

[Ophelia]

President Carmacho wrote:

I find it super interesting that people are paranoid of other people (I am too). That is awesome. It's almost like they know that the average person is fickle, ignorant, and can't be trusted. It seems like almost everyone feels this way

True again, though I'm sure I didn't feel like this at the age of 26.

One learns to feel this way by observing how other people manipulate (and I don' t mean politicians), and how much is conscious, how much unconscious manipulating.
After a while, the pull to be paranoid becomes strong, and even then it's hardly enough to meet reality.

But there is another, amazingly strong force pulling you which says: this time is different: this human being, this group of people, this leader are different. He/they is/are correct human beings, and can be trusted.

So we go on, sometimes pulled by the paranoid voice, sometimes by the "you-can-trust-them" voice. The times when they pull with the exact same force into opposite directions is when you don't go either forward or backward, but sway a little in the wind.

Or if you're optimistic you say you have found the perfect stillness and equilibrium of the buddha.

[Ophelia]

Penelope:

Comedians are doing excellent business in France at the moment, and always play in packed rooms.

People tell us we don't laugh enough, among other reasons because we don't dare to.
Since (apparently) laughing is very important for your health, people go to the comedians as to the one place where they feel it is allowed to laugh continuously for one or two hours, and if you see it like this it's well worth the money you spend, even on the nights when the comedian is not a first class genius.

Some of them are good at making people think-- people will consider what comes from a comedian when they would refuse to listen to a politician or a priest.
So yes, they have a function in society.

[President Camacho]

Wow Theo :doc:

I couldn't find the words to accurately communicate what I meant. You're right, human rights issues are very important. I just wanted to somehow say that these types of issues are the ones that people concentrate on rather than on issues that should take precedent, like national economic agendas or foreign policy (no one is hunting gay people down in the dead of night).

Someone could have brilliant ideas for economics, education, and foreign policy, but if they happen to feel that women should have the right to chose - whamo, they are gone. It's for this reason that these types of heated issues SHOULD be kept behind closed doors... for now. If it wasn't for that particular issue... who knows.

It's all about emotions clouding our rational judgment. About realizing what can and what can't be accomplished on both sides of the table.

To illustrate:

Read your post and tell me if it wasn't written with emotion. It's practically raging.

People get hyped up so easily by these issues and become blinded by their emotions. Whether you meant to or not, you've rallied yourself up and others who think like you, while excluding those who don't and rallying them up as well. Soon the entire reason for my thread will be long forgotten. Emotions have taken over.

See what I mean now?

These issues bring a halt to political progress. We're not ready for them, honestly. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed, it just means that they shouldn't take center stage. If just bringing them up forces them to center stage, then maybe they should be kept indoors.

I hope I've made my stance a little more clear. I've reread this post a couple times hoping that I've accurately explained how I feel.

[Theomanic]

Indeed, it is always difficult to convey full meaning in text. Personally I often reread what I write many times, in an effort to be as clear as possible. In fact, I have even taken a course on clear and concise writing.

In regard to your comment that my post is raging, I am honestly surprised that you find it so. If there was an over-riding emotion, it was more of an incredulous feeling, rather than anger.

I think what you are now saying is that the opinions on issues you feel are the most important should be the ones we judge our leaders on. I would heartily disagree. As I said before, the issues in question are important. Saying what people feel about them doesn't matter in the face of other issues is a judgment of your own, and not true for all people.

I would be very unlikely to vote for someone who was pro-life, regardless of their stance on other issues. This is not because it is an issue the press likes to sing and dance about, but because it is an extremely important issue to me. Other people feel just as strongly, but for the opposing side. Clearly it isn't important to you, which is fine. But then you personally can ignore those things.

Saying we shouldn't know our leaders opinion on these things says either: a) those issues don't matter, or b) the public is too simple-minded/easily riled up to make a decision on them. In response to a), I would say they are very important to some people, and that is for each person to judge on their own. In response to b), I would say that's drawing a line in the sand. How can anyone say what people are "rational" enough to judge dispassionately, and what they aren't rational enough to judge?

I'm curious about the idea that everyone should have the right to vote on all issues, but we have to keep the "heated" ones secret because the public can't handle it. Does that mean you don't believe your Kindle voting device would be a good idea at this point in time?

[President Camacho]

I feel like a small mouse being slowly cornered by a large cat.

I'm not saying that these issues do not have a specific level of importance that may be different for each individual. I'm saying they are incredibly divisive on a national scale and hinder progress. It is better for these issues not to be brought up at that level. Yes, ignored.

I didn't say you shouldn't know what your leaders think about these issues. I'm saying they shouldn't tell you or act on their beliefs on these issues. That way we can concentrate on projects that both sides of the table can agree on.

There are many irrational and misinformed people that are easily riled up. I don't understand what you mean by drawing a line in the sand. I think having these people vote is a good thing. I know this sounds counter-intuitive but it will create motivation to educate and assimilate these people. Both sides of the fence will be trying to attract votes and attempting to educate or brainwash. I'm sure you can imagine a couple bad decisions that will be voted on but the general upward trend will still prevail while giving everyone a chance to be heard.

Your last sentence hurt me a little bit because it proves my point. THESE ISSUES HURT PROGRESS. Remember the big picture?

You want to consider an issue that the federal government shouldn't handle anyway. Why not have small communities or individuals decide what to do regarding this issue. If someone doesn't like it, they can move away from their community or state that opposes their views. They won't be able to do this if the entire nation votes.

There is nothing wrong with the voting device. The device is just a means for people to be heard. The problem is with the issues and where their place is. Sometimes it is at the national level and sometimes it isn't.

If it is at the national level, wouldn't you like to have a say? Most people would. After all, your current representative might not be the person you voted for. In that case, you would definitely want the little kindle.

Alright, I gotta go help the old man. I'll be back on a little later.