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Who says ?
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Who says ?
I've asked this question many times. I'm often amazed that it evokes hostility. Here goes:- Who says what is ''Correct English''?
who says ?
PS. Sorry there's always a PS. with me !
I've had Many answers but none satisfactory.
examples ''Obvious innit ,'' ''Oxford Dons'' {Why should I listen to them ?}
''Usage'' Yeah like !!
I've had Many answers but none satisfactory.
examples ''Obvious innit ,'' ''Oxford Dons'' {Why should I listen to them ?}
''Usage'' Yeah like !!
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Chris OConnor
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who says ?
Yeah, I decide in England. Is it not strange,though, that you cannot get an answer to this simple question ?
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DWill
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That is a sticky one, I know as someone who gave teaching English a brief shot. You're right about there not being a simple answer to this. Part of the problem is that we speak and write on several levels of formality. What is OK on this forum--very informal--wouldn't be OK were I writing for one of my professors. (I'm told that "OK" still drives some Britains crazy.)
Some constructions are clearly ungrammatical without dispute, in the linguist's sense that English speakers will not know what is meant or at least will be thrown for a loop. "With Robert go I will", e.g. With other constructions, there is no doubt about the meaning, but formal rules are broken, as in "It don't matter to me." Linguists would say that social rules of usage, but not grammar, have been broken in that example. To the rest of the population, it's all "grammar."
My favorite example, from English teachers, of bad grammar is the double negative. Were you ever taught that it is wrong to say, "I don't have no money" because what you are really saying is that you do have money? Well, of course that is false, as no one misunderstands the speaker's financial situation.
Good "grammar" is like good hygiene to many, something healthy and respectable. Part of the reason I didn't teach English for long is that I care most about the richness and expressiveness of language, not exclusively about whether it conforms to notions about correctness.
That was not the concise answer you wanted, I'm thinking.
DWill
Some constructions are clearly ungrammatical without dispute, in the linguist's sense that English speakers will not know what is meant or at least will be thrown for a loop. "With Robert go I will", e.g. With other constructions, there is no doubt about the meaning, but formal rules are broken, as in "It don't matter to me." Linguists would say that social rules of usage, but not grammar, have been broken in that example. To the rest of the population, it's all "grammar."
My favorite example, from English teachers, of bad grammar is the double negative. Were you ever taught that it is wrong to say, "I don't have no money" because what you are really saying is that you do have money? Well, of course that is false, as no one misunderstands the speaker's financial situation.
Good "grammar" is like good hygiene to many, something healthy and respectable. Part of the reason I didn't teach English for long is that I care most about the richness and expressiveness of language, not exclusively about whether it conforms to notions about correctness.
That was not the concise answer you wanted, I'm thinking.
DWill
who says
DWill, thanks and you are right ,helpful as you are ,your answer doesn't answer. When I hear someone say that the 'Correct' answer to the question ,'what is the collective noun for Rhinocerous' is 'A Clash' I want to know says who,mate. When some fool decided that we should call 'Fear of Hights' Acrophobia,I reach for my Gun. What's wrong with English ?
The Dutch use 'Hoogtevries' ie Hight fear. The sight of a teacher asking children what does 'Acro whatsit mean' annoys me. Why should our kids have to learn a Greek{ish} frase and the interpret it ? Once again ENGLISH. Sorry to rant -there is much more I could say. Ciao fer Niao. J.
The Dutch use 'Hoogtevries' ie Hight fear. The sight of a teacher asking children what does 'Acro whatsit mean' annoys me. Why should our kids have to learn a Greek{ish} frase and the interpret it ? Once again ENGLISH. Sorry to rant -there is much more I could say. Ciao fer Niao. J.
I remember Steven Pinker having a great answer to this question in his book, The Language Instinct. He dedicated a whole chapter to a rant against self-appointed experts on correct usage. He wrote:
Helen
He also wrote:The legislators of "correct English," in fact, are an informal network of copy-editors, dictionary usage panelists, style manual and handbook writers, English teachers, essayists, columnists, and pundits.
I notice the whole chapter is posted in several places on the web; it must have struck a chord with many. It's quite a cathartic read.Most of the prescriptive rules of the language mavens make no sense on any level. They are bits of folklore that originated for screwball reasons several hundred years ago and have perpetuated themselves ever since.
Helen
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Penelope
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Jaywalker asks:-
The trick is in using it with competence.....for instance, I love dialect and slang...because that is always very expressive. I live very close to Liverpool....which is a Port to where people from all over the globe migrated, therefore, the dialect and slang of Liverpool is vibrant and expressive. eg. The Beatles.
Language is about expressing our feelings...and communicating. It is more powerful than we realise.
I am thinking about Shakespeare....Hamlet......To be, or not to be...whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...etc. He could have just said....'I am really fed up and I think I will top myself'......but Shakespeare's way of saying it was very beautiful....don't you think?
I am thinking about T S Elliot in 'Prufrock' - 'I have measured out my life in coffee spoons'- how could he say so much in so few words?
No one must be allowed to tell us what is correct.....but we should never,never undermine it....and its roots.
I love the fact that the language and dialect of the Freesian part of Holland, sounds so very much like my own Lancashire dialect. They, the Dutch,. say, Cup a Coffey, Coop a Tey....Just as we do in Lancashire.
A lot of the new Americanisms are very expressive.....innit???
Well, Jaywalker, we are the ones who say. We are the ones who use it to try and comunicate. But the English Language has evolved and it is rich and expressive. It contains words derived from all languages....mostly Anglo Saxon (Nordic) and Norman (Latin)....but also from Indian, Arabic and all the rest.Who says what is ''Correct English''?
The trick is in using it with competence.....for instance, I love dialect and slang...because that is always very expressive. I live very close to Liverpool....which is a Port to where people from all over the globe migrated, therefore, the dialect and slang of Liverpool is vibrant and expressive. eg. The Beatles.
Language is about expressing our feelings...and communicating. It is more powerful than we realise.
I am thinking about Shakespeare....Hamlet......To be, or not to be...whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...etc. He could have just said....'I am really fed up and I think I will top myself'......but Shakespeare's way of saying it was very beautiful....don't you think?
I am thinking about T S Elliot in 'Prufrock' - 'I have measured out my life in coffee spoons'- how could he say so much in so few words?
No one must be allowed to tell us what is correct.....but we should never,never undermine it....and its roots.
I love the fact that the language and dialect of the Freesian part of Holland, sounds so very much like my own Lancashire dialect. They, the Dutch,. say, Cup a Coffey, Coop a Tey....Just as we do in Lancashire.
A lot of the new Americanisms are very expressive.....innit???
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
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Penelope
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- One more post ought to do it.
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PS - See, I do PS's too....
The American use of language is rich and expressive because...they are like Liverpool in Macrocosm.....all nationalities....with their own contribution to the language.
Don't worry about Chris O'Connor.....trying to tidy us up....he just doesn't want us to swear and use bad language. He doesn't want us to appear ignorant through our language use....because that would reflect on his website.
But Chris....we might talk common....but we are no dimbos!!! Trust us...
The thing I like to guard against, and fight against is....the use of jargon....like....'We must maximise our interface'......'chart a path for the future'....'New models of care....based on extensive engagement'....Jargon, flying about in all directions....meaning nothing.
The American use of language is rich and expressive because...they are like Liverpool in Macrocosm.....all nationalities....with their own contribution to the language.
Don't worry about Chris O'Connor.....trying to tidy us up....he just doesn't want us to swear and use bad language. He doesn't want us to appear ignorant through our language use....because that would reflect on his website.
But Chris....we might talk common....but we are no dimbos!!! Trust us...
The thing I like to guard against, and fight against is....the use of jargon....like....'We must maximise our interface'......'chart a path for the future'....'New models of care....based on extensive engagement'....Jargon, flying about in all directions....meaning nothing.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
who says
Yes I like the Fries way of talking too. I read somewhere that they are the closest to the English if DNA is compared.
Have you noticed it's often people who admire Shakespears,who made up words when it suited him, who object to ''incorrect usage'' ?
Have you noticed it's often people who admire Shakespears,who made up words when it suited him, who object to ''incorrect usage'' ?
