Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

[PatrickSMcNally]

I can confirm that this new participant is not the same person as myself.

[LanDroid]

PatrickSMcNally claims It has been acknowledged for several decades that no documents existed which clearly described a methodical plan to exterminate Jews.

...Regarding the opening of more documentary archives, I've listened to the reports of such and haven't heard anything which even remotely suggests that these documents have anything to support the claims of either gas chambers or an ethnic extermination plan.

I suppose one might understand the first statement given the massive document archives were just beginning to be opened in 2006. However the second statement makes no sense.

The 21-year-old Russian sat before a clerk of the U.S. Army Judge Advocate's office, describing the furnaces at Auschwitz, the Nazi death camp where he had been a prisoner until a few weeks previously.

"I saw with my own eyes how thousands of Jews were gassed daily and thrown by the hundreds into pits where Jews were burning," he said. "I saw how little children were killed with sticks and thrown into the fire," he continued. Blood flowed in gutters, and "Jews were thrown in and died there"; more were taken off trucks and cast alive into the flames.

Today the Holocaust is known in dense and painful detail. Yet the young Russian's words leap off the faded, onionskin page with a rawness that transports the reader back to April 1945, when World War II was still raging and the world still knew little about gas chambers, genocide and the Final Solution.

The two pages of testimony, in a file randomly plucked off a shelf, are among millions of documents held by the International Tracing Service, or ITS, an arm of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15791203/

There are many miles of documents like that one to go through.

The files will support new research from other sources showing that the network of concentration camps, ghettos and labor camps was nearly three times more extensive than previously thought.

In contrast to one of your claims above:

To operate history's greatest slaughter, the Nazis created a bureaucracy that meticulously recorded the arrest, movement and death of each victim.

Here's some more recent information:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iRhH ... QD91I1U080

[PatrickSMcNally]

the second statement makes no sense.

The 21-year-old Russian sat before a clerk of the U.S. Army Judge Advocate's office, describing the furnaces at Auschwitz,

This is old stuff and has absolutely nothing to do with any valid new documentation from German archives. The Allies held a show trial after the war where a multitude of testimonies alleging such things as the use of steam chambers as a mass-execution device in Treblinka were claimed. The bulk of testimonies have repeatedly been shown as inconsistent both in terms of their internal logic and with known external facts, particularly whenever they veer into gas chamber teritory. The more consistent evidence supports nothing more than the occurrence of a counter-insurgency war in eastern Europe with attendant brutality similar to My Lai, as well plans for a mass-deportation of Jews by force to the eastern ends of Europe. When I pointed out that nothing appearing in the news thus far about new documentation become available has supported the gas chamber thesis I was referring to the fact no one has been able to find any German documents detailing the use of gas chambers as a mass-execution device, although it's known that the Germans kept meticulous documentary records of everything they did. Your quote of the testimony of a Russian prisoner in preparation for the show-trial does not consistent German documentary evidence of gas chambers in operation.

[PatrickSMcNally]

In contrast to one of your claims above:

To operate history's greatest slaughter, the Nazis created a bureaucracy that meticulously recorded the arrest, movement and death of each victim.

Statements like this are often tossed around informally in media announcements. But as I noted with Leon Poliakov already, and the same point could be made by citing Raul Hilberg or Christopher Browning or many other official academic representatives of the Holocaust industry, it has long been admitted in more professional treatments of the subject that any documentation of the alleged gas chambers is completely lacking. Not only that, but no documentation exists which clearly identifies the physical extermination of Jews as a goal. My documents speak of evacuating Jews to the east, and some make theatrical references to the annihilation of Judaism, but no part of the documentary record lays out a clear unambiguous plan for the extermination of Jews using gas chambers. The fact that you may find a few casual media quotes which seem to imply otherwise means nothing. The academic professionals such Hilberg or Poliakov have had to admit that there is no such documentation. When one gets down to the nitty-gritty of what the documents actually show, they show a police state in operation "that meticulously recorded the arrest, movement and death of each victim" without ever leaving any documentation behind to support the hoax of the gas chambers. In other words, they never existed and the documentation is consistent with this.

[LanDroid]

Do you think the academic representatives you mentioned have combed the recently opened archives? Sounds like their statements about lack of documentation were made while these archives were still closed. One thing they're learning from the new documents is the scope of the system was much larger than previously thought, from 5000 to 7000 detention centers to perhaps as many as 20000.

[PatrickSMcNally]

Do you think the academic representatives you mentioned have combed the recently opened archives? Sounds like their statements about lack of documentation were made while these archives were still closed.

Of course. What I've pointed out is that none of the announcements made about these archives carries the slightest hint of gas chambers or anything related to the orthodox exterminationist view of the alleged Holocaust.

One thing they're learning from the new documents is the scope of the system was much larger than previously thought, from 5000 to 7000 detention centers to perhaps as many as 20000.

Detention centers are a fairly normal thing in a police state. Although I was against the Iraq war, I wouldn't be surprised if someone eventually shows that multiple detention centers were in operation across Ba'athist Iraq. That still would not vindicate the charges of 400,000 Kurds allegedly being killed by Saddam Hussein, a charge which Human Rights Watch used to trumpet but which has now quietly faded. Likewise, nothing about these reports of detention centers existing across the third Reich even begins to support the story of the fabled Holocaust. They're just another reminder that political repression is bad in general.