"Torture: What Would Jesus Do?"

[DWill]

From the May 15 issue of my favorite magazine, The Week.

"'So much for turning 'the other cheek,' said Chris Good in The Atlantic Online. A new poll by the Pew Research Center found that the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support torture as an interrogation technique. Some 54 percent of churchgoers who attend church weekly said the use of torture is 'often' or 'sometimes' justified. Support for torture among atheists, agnostics, and 'unaffiliateds' was substantially lower, at 40 percent. White evangelicals are 'more prone to saying torture is justifiable' than either Catholics or mainline Protestants. For those of us who take Christ's teachings seriously, this is grim news, said John Mark Reynolds in The Washington Post.com. Consider how the Romans tortured Christ. Now, 'fear and the desire to protect the innocent often drive good men to do very bad things." But torturing any man, 'even the most base' debases the torturer, as it did the Romans. Christianity and torture are profoundly 'incompatible.'"

[Ophelia]

Support for torture among atheists, agnostics, and 'unaffiliateds' was substantially lower, at 40 percent.

One can never know how much surveys are to be trusted, but I see no cause for rejoicing in this figure-- this is awful, and I find it hard to believe.

[Suzanne]

Ophelia wrote:

One can never know how much surveys are to be trusted, but I see no cause for rejoicing in this figure-- this is awful, and I find it hard to believe.

I don't think DWILL was rejoicing, I think he just wanted to share information on a topic that has been quite hot around here lately. The Pew Research Center is one of the most respected polling organizations in the US. And, the "Atlantic" magazine, has a very respectable reputation. Below is the link for Pew.

http://people-press.org/about/

Suzanne

[MaryLupin]

Have people here read about the Milgram experiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

It doesn't surprise me that those with religious affiliations are more prone to the acceptance of torture. I think that often people join (or stay with) religions (or any group for that matter) not because they want to act morally in their own lives (which one can do regardless of one's associations). Rather many people join groups because they want to act in concert with others - they want to belong. Not bad in itself, but the desire to belong does make one vulnerable to the authority figure in the group. So it might me interesting to see whom the authority figure voted for in the last US presidential election and what that authority figure believes about torture.

One reason that I wonder this is because I did a series of interviews during the campaign season that led up to the last Bush presidency. One woman stands out in my memory (amongst many others who said the same thing). When asked why she would vote the way she had described, she said "Because my pastor told me this was for the best." When pressed for her own opinion, she said she didn't actually know anything about the candidates but that she knew her pastor was a good man and so she knew he was right.

[Ophelia]

I used the word "rejoicing" because to somebody like me it would normally be a cause for satisfaction if a group to which I belong (atheists) showed less inclination to use violence than a group I don't belong to. But in this case both sets of answers are awful.
I tried to picture which context could get such answers. Would it be asking Americans if they thought torture should be applied to terrorists?

[DWill]

Ophelia's reaction to the poll was interesting because it shows, first of all, how unlikely it is that our media would carry the analysis of an atheist or unbeliever. The reaction given was from the standpoint of a Christian. As an atheist herself, Ophelia focused rather on the large percentage of atheists, humanists, and agnostics who said they could justify torture being used. She seems to minimize the significance of 54% vs. 40%, and I think she may have good reason to do that. Think of having 50 encounters in which you find that 27 people (54%) say they think torture can be justified at least sometimes. If you were to have 50 different encounters in which 20 people (40%) say they could sometimes justify torture, how great would the difference really appear to you? More striking than the numbers would probably be the proportion of the "often" vs. "sometimes" justifiers, or just the impression you'd get based on the degree of vehemence of the views.

Mary's analysis makes sense, too. The authority figures in the evangelical churches would more often support the use of torture, if only because the authority figure to whom they looked up was an evangelical named George Bush who also supported it (despite anything he said to the contrary). It shouldn't be that surprising that politics trumps the teachings of Jesus.

Another thing to be noted is the distortions that result when the media report on studies. This is most obvious in the health and medical fields, where an 80% increase in risk is reported, but it is left unsaid that this may represent only an increase in incidence from one case in 100 to 1.5 cases in 100. You can look at the Pew results for yourself and see how the reporting distorted the poll. For example, the category atheist or agnostic was not even used. Guess I should have checked the poll myself!
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1210/tortur ... ifferences

P.S. My nomination for Orwellian phrase of the decade: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.

[Suzanne]

DWILL:

Thank you for your thoughts, they were very well said, I can appreciate Ophelia's comments and I believe I owe her an appology.

Years ago, a co worker found the Berg beheading video. I wouldn't watch it, but I could hear it, this has become one of my greatest regrets. I can still hear him, and it makes me cry to this day. I want to rage, I want to retaliate, I want to cause pain, but I realize the screams will be just as intollerable coming from a captured prisoner as they were from Berg.

Ophelia:

I can now understand your position and comments on this topic, and I appologize that I did not understand your sentiments.

Suzanne

[geo]

Have people here read about the Milgram experiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

It doesn't surprise me that those with religious affiliations are more prone to the acceptance of torture. I think that often people join (or stay with) religions (or any group for that matter) not because they want to act morally in their own lives (which one can do regardless of one's associations). Rather many people join groups because they want to act in concert with others - they want to belong.

This is interesting. I had never heard about the "Milgram experiment." I agree that some folks are inclined towards religion out of s sense of wanting to belong. Another possible factor in this poll might be that religious folks tend to be more conservative. I don't know what the percentage is offhand. In America, at least, conservative values translate to somewhat more hawkish views towards the use of military force. And certainly Republicans in recent years have been supportive of the use of torture, especially during the Bush Administration.

[Brotherska]

Hi Everyone:

Please note that Pew did not define torture. If people thought that the worst type of torture was having the light kept on all night or Water-boarding, then more people would likely find that agreeable than if the torture included permanent maiming (loss of eyes, limbs, etc) or death.

[Frank 013]

What would Jesus do?

He would prostrate himself in front of the torturers to be tortured and killed to save mankind from the original sin created by a rib woman who was created from a man made from clay who were both misled into eating an apple by a talking snake.

It’s a good thing that the Romans used torture or else the blood sacrifice mandated by god would not have been successful.

Of course the whole story is absurd and rife with inaccuracies when compared to what we actually know about how the Romans tortured their criminals… as well as the whole Jewish trial being illegal by their own law at that time.

But hey it is almost interesting as stories go.

Concerning actual subject of this thread… several studies have been conducted about religious attitudes towards war and wartime injustice… they all show that the most religious people are more willing to do harm to their fellow man.

The out group mentality created by religion rears its ugly head once again!

Later