Have you read the entire Bible?

[j guevara]

"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that we are the ones that need help?"
— Mark Twain

Twain's 'Letters From Earth' is a must read regardless of beliefs

j guevara

[LanDroid]

From what I have read of the Bible, Jesus was open to debate. His motive may have been conversion, but his teachings were not as dogmatic as what has since been taught in his name.

Perhaps you should stop reading about Jesus and start reading the Bible, then show where He was open to debate

Well there is that parable about dogs eating crumbs from under the table where Jesus got schooled by someone with a different perspective.

[geo]

I would like to read and discuss some of the booksof the Bible with people who have no axe to grind. I would like to drop in and out of discussions as and when...

So if we proceed....I think we should check our axes in at the Foyer!!

What do we think? What is the concensus?

Hear! hear!

[stahrwe]

From what I have read of the Bible, Jesus was open to debate. His motive may have been conversion, but his teachings were not as dogmatic as what has since been taught in his name.

Perhaps you should stop reading about Jesus and start reading the Bible, then show where He was open to debate

Well there is that parable about dogs eating crumbs from under the table where Jesus got schooled by someone with a different perspective.

Good point, but you need to read the verse in context. Here is the passage you are referring to:

Matthew 15:
22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Who is being schooled here; Jesus? no. The woman? No. The desciples? Yes. Back in Amos it is prophesied that salvation would extend to the gentiles. The woman had faith to seek out Jesus. Her faith gave her admission into the Kingdom.

[stahrwe]

From what I have read of the Bible, Jesus was open to debate. His motive may have been conversion, but his teachings were not as dogmatic as what has since been taught in his name.

Perhaps you should stop reading about Jesus and start reading the Bible, then show where He was open to debate

I've actually not read anything about Jesus. I've read what his disciples wrote about him and what his teachings were. I believe those are called the Gospels, and are actually parts of the Bible.

Considering my original words actually are "from what I have read of the Bible," and not "from what I have read about Jesus," I believe it is you who are misinformed. Maybe you should pay more attention to what people actually say before becoming defensive when a possible hole could be punched in your supposedly infallible view.

Perhaps.

[bleachededen]

I would like to read and discuss some of the booksof the Bible with people who have no axe to grind. I would like to drop in and out of discussions as and when...

So if we proceed....I think we should check our axes in at the Foyer!!

What do we think? What is the concensus?

Hear! hear!

I'm totally with you, because I have no ax to grind, except to defend logic and rational thinking to those who do have an ax to grind, or more specifically, an irrational, unjustifiably blind belief that what he/she believes is right beyond reproach and anyone else is wrong by default. I do not mean to fight in a thread that is meant to be an objective literary discussion, but I cannot stand idly by while someone else refuses to be objective.

This is a thorny topic and I probably shouldn't have gotten involved, but alas, I cannot help myself.

[stahrwe]

Chris O'Conner said in the introduction to this discussion:
"This forum is for intelligent, rational and civil discussion of the Bible and world religion of Christianity. It is not a safe haven for Christians any more than the Atheism forum is a safe haven for atheists. BookTalk.org is all about open and honest discussions of anything and everything, and this includes the Bible and religion. Both believers and non-believers are expected to treat one another with respect here."

Are you all interested in just hearing your perspective on the topic? Do you want a safe haven? If so, tell me and that will be that.

On the other hand, if you want a discussion, a real discussion of the Bible and Christianity that's fine with me but I am not going to be silenced by criticism, insults, name calling or anything else. And when I see something put out which needs clarification, I will jump in.

Your choice. All of you Free Thinkers.

[Penelope]

Chris O'Conner said in the introduction to this discussion:
"This forum is for intelligent, rational and civil discussion of the Bible and world religion of Christianity. It is not a safe haven for Christians any more than the Atheism forum is a safe haven for atheists. BookTalk.org is all about open and honest discussions of anything and everything, and this includes the Bible and religion. Both believers and non-believers are expected to treat one another with respect here."

Thank you Starwhe for reminding me of this. In view of it, I am not sure I have the correct approach. I was hoping to discuss the Bible as though it were just a work of literature, suspending our belief or suspending our disbelief, whichever applies.

I am fascinated by what is hidden in the fables, myths, history and poetry. I am also fascinated by Hindu mythology.

I don't really think we will achieve anything but heartbreak if we approach it any other way.

Having said that....Chris stipulated 'The World Religion of Christianity' (I assume, from the point of view of the Bible) which I do not wish to disect, since Christianity Worldwide can be almost diametrically opposite,depending on which denomination or sect one is considering.

So, I will continue to read these interesting threads....and I will need to just comment now and again in order to get the email prompts......but you may all just ignore me.

[bleachededen]

Chris O'Conner said in the introduction to this discussion:
"This forum is for intelligent, rational and civil discussion of the Bible and world religion of Christianity. It is not a safe haven for Christians any more than the Atheism forum is a safe haven for atheists. BookTalk.org is all about open and honest discussions of anything and everything, and this includes the Bible and religion. Both believers and non-believers are expected to treat one another with respect here."

Are you all interested in just hearing your perspective on the topic? Do you want a safe haven? If so, tell me and that will be that.

On the other hand, if you want a discussion, a real discussion of the Bible and Christianity that's fine with me but I am not going to be silenced by criticism, insults, name calling or anything else. And when I see something put out which needs clarification, I will jump in.

Your choice. All of you Free Thinkers.

As far as I've seen, you are the only one "name calling" or "insulting" anyone. Everyone else is treating this as civil discussion; for some reason you are taking it personally because we are trying to see past pure belief and talk rationally. That has nothing to do with "Free Thinking" -- it just has to do with thinking, in general. No one's asking you to be silent, but to take other perspectives into consideration, which, I'm sorry if you don't want to believe this, you don't.

You're claiming that all of the "Free Thinkers" only want to hear their own view, but they hear/read what is said and respond accordingly, and none of that has involved name-calling or insults. Yet again you are refusing to accurately read what is being said and taking it personally and emotionally and attacking those who are only questioning you. If you would like to see yourself as a sole believer martyr in a forum full of "Free Thinkers," then so be it. But don't expect me or anyone else to feel like a villain because your belief is called into question. None of us are saying "Shut up, you Christian," and many of us don't even think of ourselves as "Free Thinkers" but you repeatedly call us that as if it is something beyond evil. I suppose that's just the only insult you can think of, besides heathen, I suppose, which none of us would be insulted by, since we don't follow a narrow belief that calls for everyone but us to be wrong because they don't agree.

If you feel attacked, maybe you should ask yourself why instead of automatically pointing the proverbial finger and painting all of us the villain. Seems a bit fishy to me that instead of responding to points and considering you might be wrong, you claim victim status and make us out to be the narrow-minded. Not to mention there aren't "sides" here, only people's thoughts and maybe some of us agree with each other and not other but that still does not mean we are only talking to hear our own views.

[bleachededen]

Chris O'Conner said in the introduction to this discussion:
"This forum is for intelligent, rational and civil discussion of the Bible and world religion of Christianity. It is not a safe haven for Christians any more than the Atheism forum is a safe haven for atheists. BookTalk.org is all about open and honest discussions of anything and everything, and this includes the Bible and religion. Both believers and non-believers are expected to treat one another with respect here."

Thank you Starwhe for reminding me of this. In view of it, I am not sure I have the correct approach. I was hoping to discuss the Bible as though it were just a work of literature, suspending our belief or suspending our disbelief, whichever applies.

I am fascinated by what is hidden in the fables, myths, history and poetry. I am also fascinated by Hindu mythology.

I don't really think we will achieve anything but heartbreak if we approach it any other way.

Having said that....Chris stipulated 'The World Religion of Christianity' (I assume, from the point of view of the Bible) which I do not wish to disect, since Christianity Worldwide can be almost diametrically opposite,depending on which denomination or sect one is considering.

So, I will continue to read these interesting threads....and I will need to just comment now and again in order to get the email prompts......but you may all just ignore me.

I don't think rolling over and playing dead goes along with Chris' intentions for this forum, either. Just because someone believes strongly and feels offended by others' views does not mean that we should cow-tow to their idea of discussion instead of allowing all methods of discussion to be considered.

You are not wrong just because someone else thinks they are right. If "Free Thinkers" are supposed to set their agendas aside in order to let ..."non free thinkers?" or believers have their say, then how is this a civil and rational debate?

Just because you have offended someone doesn't mean you are wrong and must capitulate. If you meant what you said, you have every right to say it and continue to say it. That is what starwhe is asking for, and that is what you deserve, as well, Penelope.