A mystery to solve, or the mystery that solves.

[Robert Tulip]

What about Chaos? Is there intelligence in that? Does intelligence have limitations?

Obviously mine does because I'm getting confused.

Chaos is the flipside of order and complexity. All real complex systems are chaotic, which is to say their intrinsic order is too complex for human prediction of their future states. Intelligence is a function of order. The order of the universe operates through chaotic complexity. Intelligence is limited by finite nature.

[johnson1010]

i agree with much of your post RT, except the use of the word intelligence. That word has very clear connotations and i see no reason to use it in this context. It muddies the water, even though you go out of your way to explain you do not mean intelligence in its common usage.

Why not drop this word out to avoid the confusion. There are many more accurate words to describe the situation.

Gravity, for instance, is a mechanistic system. You require intelligence to understand it, or to come close to accurately predicting using that model, but the model itself is not "intelligent". Using that term anthropomorphizes a clearly mechanical system.

This is exactly the kind of thing we need to avoid. instead of grappling with the complex mathematics necessary to understand how gravity really works, we are left wrestling with "what kind of intelligence" we are talking about.

It doesnt apply. It is a mystery on top of a mystery. Religion does this much more bald-faced and intends that their own mystery, God, is the end of the debate. Problem solved. God is not the answer. The real answer is terribly complex, but within our ability to comprehend and describe. We should not burden ourselves with a goose chase of our own making. One we know leads nowhere.

[MDuszak]

You are absolutely right that we must abandon all thought of creationism and intelligent design in order to understand evolution.

Evolution does NOT contradict intelligence permeating the creation. For the evolution to take place as it has been, creating such amazing systems and variety of biological life throughout the universe, it MUST be intelligent. And for the intelligence to be intelligent, it must contain a certain innate order and system. Whether you call it a creator, God, or Divine Mind or Energy...the intelligent force DOES exist within it all, sustaining it and moving it forward.

[johnson1010]

not so.

complex systems arise through random mutations. Most of which fail and are eliminated. those that funciton more efficiently proliferate through better breeding opportunities.

Over time simple systems become more complex. This is an entirely mechanistic process.

[MDuszak]

Well..not for me, but ok.

[johnson1010]

Yes.
You too.

You are the product of a 4 billion year game of genetic telephone where your ancestors said AAABA and the next generation heard AABAA.

It is not flattering to think that we are only our bodies. That there is no permanence to our lives. All our yearning for greater meaning comes from the single conceit of not being able to visualize our own demise. The fact is the world keeps on zipping along while life forms perish in their trillions. The earth won't miss us. There is no special cloud-strewn afterlife for us because we are so special the world can't bear to go on without us.

We are animals, and we should make the most of it.

[MDuszak]

Oh how sad. Well..good luck!

[WhimsicalWonder]

First - Robert Tulip never said that Whimisical Wonder said that. You've managed to pull a double mis-quote.


Second - "It's all so amazing that there must be an intelligent force behind it all." Seriously, this can not be your foundation. Is it? Personally I question the intelligence of any "force" or any "farce" that could have "created" a race of beings so full of endless suffering? How much time have you spent in a children's hospital, on the terminal unit? In a psych ward? In a nursing home? In a third-world country? In the midst of war? I'm just curious, because I think it's far more sad to attribute all of this to some divine force than it is to accept it for what it is and to do something as an able-bodied human to lend a hand in the mess and as Johnson said to make the most it.

[johnson1010]

The fact that we are limited. That one day we will die is sad.

But it is also a call to action.

Try your hardest to make each day unbelievably great. Don't ruin your day, or someone elses, because it is a day that no one will ever get back. Make the most of your life and help others do the same.

[MDuszak]

The fact that there are angry, hateful and destructive people in the world, diseases as well as wars has nothing to do for me with the lack of the Intelligent Force present in the world propelling the creation forward and onward. This is all in the power of individual people to choose the direction of their own actions.

As for as the diseases....I am confused on that topic myself, to be honest, and not sure what part of the design the sickness fits into. If anything, I think..it would belong to the Evolution going wrong somewhere domain, not the Creator's..