Inspired Atheist

[Interbane]

Coffey:

For instance, i understand and appreciate the enormous existential courage it takes to live without any hope or desire of belief in anything beyond this life. and please know there is no sarcasm there. i would like to know what you feel gives you purpose and meaning and how you determine what is good. Those are answers i find in faith and so that is an area i really don't know how to relate to and how to wrap my head around. you seem very bright which sometimes can make the world even darker and bleaker.

This thread is for the resident atheists to answer the questions above. These are great questions. The world sometimes does seem dark to me. I think it is more a response to the problems I see rather than a matter of existential coloring. But then, we're all familiar with that perspective.

I'd start by saying I have empathy. Judging by how others have acted in certain situations, I would say I have the same amount of empathy. I truly feel bad for people when I see them in certain situations. I also have hope. The same amount as anyone else, I'd guess. Just as anyone has goals, toward which their hope points, I have goals. My overarching goal, my ultimate concern, is to improve life for myself and my loved ones primarily(and everyone else secondly). I truly desire this, from the bottom of my heart. It is general enough that it encompasses all the minor goals and hopes that pop up from day to day or year to year. Making another person smile is a small victory.

If you ask why I want this so much, I'd say the answer has to do with a mixture of genetics and upbringing. We are all born with varying degrees of behavior influencing emotions, such as empathy, desire, embarrassment, and guilt. In some cases, we need not even be taught how they apply. Children have been shown in experiments to become upset when other children are upset or harmed.

The application, in detail, of some of these responses or emotions is based on what we learn. We must first be taught that cheating is wrong before we are able to feel guilty if we are caught cheating. As far as the application of the golden rule of morality, I understand perfectly well that in order to improve my life the most, everyone must follow the golden rule of morality. I do not accept this based on faith. It is reasonable, and can even be shown mathematically(I think - game theory). Everyone MUST follow the golden rule of morality if I am to live a more comfortable/fulfilling life, and that includes myself and my children.

The joys in life, the smiles each day, laughter of my son, appreciation of a person helped. These things make life worth living. I find the joy inside myself. To me, when I hear of people who depend on the ideas of heaven and hell as motivations for their behaviors and hopes, it seems so 'external'. They aren't propelled by anything within themselves, almost as if they are hollow and lacking. An external impetus, a carrot on a stick, is required for them to find hope, meaning, and motivation.

[Dexter]

Although not an answer to the questions, I have to point out the obvious, which is that even if belief in God is very comforting, it doesn't make it true. Even a believer has to admit that this is the motivation for why many people do believe in God and why it would never occur to them to question whether it's true.

[President Camacho]

On what I feel gives me purpose and meaning and how I determine what is good.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the purpose and meaning portion of the question. Each person has their own motivation for action and it's up to the individual to find out what exactly makes them happy or depressed and from that they can determine how best to spend their time. A person, through years of introspection and experience, can understand what balance of diet, exercise, labor, social exposure, adventure, security etc. works best for them to make them satisfied with their one life.

To find something to live for is a hard thing to do but it's up to the person to find that out. It largely depends on what goals that person wants to set for themselves based on the limiting factors which they need to make them content enough to want to spend extra energy on achievement.

For me, I live for myself like everyone else does. I try to make me as happy as I can be. This doesn't mean my happiness comes at the expense of others because then I'd be unhappy if that were the case.

The concept of what is good is a different scenario because morals and ethics are involved. Both of these need man's general agreement on which behaviors are righteous and which are not. When the vast majority agree, it can be decided on, and if needed made into law. We can agree that stealing is wrong, not because law says it's so, but because of a reason which can be argued and agreed on. No one likes his property taken without his permission. If I was the only man who didn't like his property stolen it would be both morally and ethically correct by the standards of that society to steal my property (if no one knew I didn't like my property stolen).

The concept of good as in just is skewed because men are in charge of it - no one else. We debate over it - Plato, Cicero, Plutarch, the list goes on forever because Men decide what is right and what is not.

I determine what is good from what other men have taught me, what I've learned on my own through personal experience, and my own temperament/likes and dislikes.

What about what I determine what is good and how I act in accordance with that? That seems a better question. It almost seems to me a study in economics. What I have to gain by acting a certain way. I know I'll feel bad if I run over a cat even though there is no penalty for running one over in the road. I'd still feel very bad and so I don't do it. I swerve and crash. I incur a heavy financial loss because that animal could be someone's pet, a stray, or maybe it turned out to be dead already and I didn't notice it - who cares I didn't want to run it over. I gain more by swerving and hitting a tree than I do by running over the cat. To me that seems like an economics theory. On the other side of the coin, I think it's good to help the environment by recycling but I don't do it.... tragedy of the commons.

Why is God a good purpose? The community that a church creates with its benevolent activities provides people with a good purpose. I don't understand why there needs to be some fantastical being as the mascot. It takes away from the noble nature of people. They are no longer doing it out of the kindness of their own heart but because someone told them to do it or think they're earning points towards heaven.

How can you ask what I think is good with what the church has done throughout history under the pretext of some imagined divinity. The more I think about religion the more it disgusts me and the contempt I have for pushers of this evil delusion grows daily. The delusion is what makes me upset.

[DWill]

Although not an answer to the questions, I have to point out the obvious, which is that even if belief in God is very comforting, it doesn't make it true. Even a believer has to admit that this is the motivation for why many people do believe in God and why it would never occur to them to question whether it's true.

Agreed. When you start off with something, like an afterlife, that has such an emotional appeal, the reasons then offered for its being a reality almost have to be seen as suspect.

[VMLM]

Heeey, nobody knows me . Still, this seems like fun.

I think most (if not all) newly made Atheists-from-Christianity converts go through an existentialist phase. Because as a Christian it's all figured out for you right? Be good and you'll be doing god's work, when you die you'll go to heaven; oh and don't worry about all the people who are ready to trample, cheat and rob you along the way, guess what? they're all going to hell when they die!
I know the Christian moral philosophy is a lot more complex than that, but an undeniably large portion of Christians do operate on this level of conscious morality. The thing is sometimes, for some of us, it just doesn't make sense when we come into contact with it. I didn't feel it was fair on a number of levels and I just didn't buy into it... and once you leave the warmth and comfort of a structured belief system... On the one hand you feel you've "made the right choice" and are no longer "living a lie"; but on the other you suddenly have to come up with a lot of big answers to some really, really big questions. For me that was pretty hard, let me tell you. I was probably about 11 when I stopped believing in god, and at that age I was mostly depressed at the idea that no matter what I did, no matter how you looked at it, the moment I died I'd cease to exist.

Note: I'm placing the next part in spoiler tags because it's off-topic, although I do think it has a tangent relevance to the thread.

Spoiler

I've always felt that this is one of the merits of religious systems, one that we dismiss too readily.
As an example (please bear with me through it), think of how quickly and easily you can make a blog these days. All you have to do is sign up to one of the existing free online blogging services (take your pick, there's hundreds), find something to blog about and start uploading content. It takes literally five minutes and you never have to worry about how exactly your content gets "up there", or what HTML, CSS or PHP actually stand for, unless you want to do some semi-advanced stuff. Nevermind that, you really don't have to worry about TCP/IP, relay servers, data encryption, etc.
Now in contrast to that, think of what it was like to make your own web page twenty years back.
My point is that, just as it is now much easier to publish yourself on the web because of the underlying structure that exists and which we rarely worry about, religion gives its supporters an underlying moral framework that lets them carry on with their daily activities without having to strive to become moral experts.
We atheist tend to pride ourselves on the curious fact that most of us are better informed about moral philosophy and religion than the greater part of the world's Christian population. But most of us will have spent countless hours thinking and reading about moral philosophy while the greater part of Catholics and Christians will have been out there doing whatever they willed, worrying very little about morality because in their eyes they've already got it all figured out.
I'm not justifying Christianity, but I do believe that it will continue to be an important part of society until an alternative system of morality replaces it. Hopefully one that emphasizes fraternity and good will for the sake of peace and prosperity, rather than in the hopes of a better after-life.

Edit: Wow this method of marking spoilers isn't very good looking is it?

I'm a rambler. I know that earlier in my life I probably would've written a whole lot about where I'm at now philosophically and how I got here, but I won't do that now. I'll just tell you that eventually I came to this conclusion: There's three basic reasons why I choose to do what I choose to do and call it good.

• I believe that anything that you'd expect from someone else, you should first expect of yourself.
• I also believe that adherence to certain principles is an important part of good relationships, effectiveness and happiness.
• Striving for my own happiness and the happiness of those around me is an important part of who I am.

As to my greater hopes and desires? What drives me? I actually sit down and go through that every so often xD. Just to make sure I'm doing what I want to do and going where I want to go. Mostly it has to do with what the next step in my career is, what abilities I want to develop or what else I want to learn. I do know that throughout my life I want to be responsible, reliable, loving, cultured and knowledgeable; that I want to explore the world and experience as much of it as possible, and that at the end of my life it would be nice to have a large family.

Simple huh?

[President Camacho]

I don't understand the whole - you can be as good as you want to be but if you don't believe you're still going to hell. Or, all you need is to believe and even if you've lived an infamous life you'll be saved if at the end you renounce everything you've done and accept someone as your personal go to guy when you're dead.

Now that people are getting progressively less religious here in America, it seems religion wants to take on a benevolent and comforting disguise. It's guile worthy of any sinking business. Christianity can no longer strong arm people into believing - they don't have that monopoly any longer. More and more are waking up and just trying to be good people - the way good people have tried to do since day 1, without all the pointy hats. They take solace in the good they do and the deeds they accomplish. They strive for goals and when they fall short they turn to friends and family. No one can deny that fortune plays a role in life but people are wise enough to see that it's chance and not some invisible hand.

I hope there's a day when people live for themselves and not for some fantasy cloud rider. They'll do the best they can for themselves because they want to be a contributor to their family and community. They want to live a good life, achieve, help, and make life the greatest one way ride they possibly can.

[oblivion]

I think it takes less courage to live, knowing the givens one has, knowing exactly who one can depend on, knowing rationally what consequences to expect of actions/ thought, knowing what tangible love is, knowing that after death there are no surprises because of something you did or did not do in life, knowing that you can use and rely on the intellect that you possess....much less courage than wondering if a beloved person actually "went to the right place" following death, wondering if you are pertaining to a god's rules and regulations that are not tangibly related or explained to you, wondering why you are--especially as a woman--an "afterthought" in the so-called divine plan, basking in an imaginary love when so much tangible is available, etc.
I don't think it requires courage to live as an atheist. I think I would be scared out of my wits living as a theist. I find comfort in my mind and not in an imaginary friend--I have real ones.

[tbarron]

i would like to know what you feel gives you purpose and meaning and how you determine what is good.

Nothing gives me purpose or meaning. Purpose and meaning happen where and when I create them for myself. I can only speak from my own experience, but I *think* that's actually what goes on for everyone. We create purpose and meaning out of cultural traditions or ideas, then forget that we created the meaning and see it as coming from the traditions or the ideas.

What is good is what I like. What is bad is what I don't like. One of the things I like (which, therefore seems "good" to me) is helping the people I'm close to (members of my tribe, as it were) to get the things they like, the things that seem good to them. I notice they often reciprocate. Again, I suspect that this is how it is for everyone, but due to cultural indoctrination (or whatever) we often try to place our standard for good and bad outside ourselves, perhaps in an effort to make it objective or rational. I don't see the point. As far as I can tell, judgements are always subjective, and depend on the person making them.

[tbarron]

I hope there's a day when people live for themselves and not for some fantasy cloud rider. They'll do the best they can for themselves because they want to be a contributor to their family and community. They want to live a good life, achieve, help, and make life the greatest one way ride they possibly can.

In my world, your wish is granted. What you describe is what I already see people doing. As it turns out, they then want to blame it on God. That's okay, that's just part of their idea of what "good" is.

[President Camacho]

Agreed. The whole purpose and meaning question seems loaded when asked by a theist. Everyone can debate what constitutes good or how to lead a good and virtuous life.

Purpose and meaning.

My father always told me that your reach should exceed your grasp. Goal setting gives people purpose. Everyone should have a purpose in order to live a 'good' life because without it a man is a wandering confused waste - a consumer. Direction is a better question to ask a man rather than purpose, I feel. It should be... What gives your life direction and what do you think is necessary to live a good life?

Answering what gives your life direction will show what your goals, purpose/meaning of your actions, hopes, and expectations are. It will also give others key insight into how they can help or hurt you. For those who also wish to live a good life, they should feel moral pangs if they do something which may derail you provided they find your endeavors virtuous; even more so because they recognize you also have one life and there will be no chance to make it up to you in the clouds when you cease to be.