Bruce Sterling and Schismatrix

[Mr. P]

I finished "Swarm". Very interesting. I have been busy all week and cannot post my thoughts right now.I will comment on the main thought I have been tossing around, and that is: Is intelligence a BANE to life? What a concept. The humans in this story (and all around us) are so smug that 'we will overcome' through our big brains...but is it possible that we are really killing ourselves with our over-blown reverence of our intelligence? Ourselves and other life forms.The Swarm is looked down upon by the two other species in this story...but it seems that the swarm dwarfs them both in the art of survival. I find it interesting that the intelligence aspect of the Swarm was drawn into existence by the threat to the entity.Mad? Your thoughts?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy PiperEdited by: misterpessimistic  at: 6/19/06 11:59 am

[the hive queen]

sorry, guys... I am still waiting for my book to arrive at the bookstore. I promise to start it as soon as I have it. "Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody is watching." -- Keller Williams

[Mr. P]

Getting back to your earlier responses:Quote:I think part of the Swarm intelligence's point is that the divisions would never have arisen without intelligence. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to question one's place in the social realm...So maybe what's critical is the role played by intelligence in ambition...So intelligence is not necessary to create faction but makes the ultimate reality of faction more aggressive and dangerous because we REALIZE that there are factions and that promoting our own will lead to fulfillment of our own goals? I think that this is the case. But the flip side is that intelligence can also lead some to see the folly in this...although I will say that the former is more the case than the latter. I tend the think that intelligence and the ability to reason would be enough to overcome the base intstincts in our speices...maybe this is so, but we have yet to reach the appropriate levels to make this so? This seems to me to be implied in the story.Quote:It was an evolved, but ultimately unguided, chemical reaction.I like that...sort of like it probably happened with the evolution of human intelligence...much to the dismay of creationists!Quote:Swarm probably would have squashed it early onWait...does Swarm have control or is it just an evolved entity? I see the Swarm as a conglomerate of beings, yet evolved into a single entity. The intelligence was probably aquired from parts of the aggregate, but was subordinated to the whole. So the intelligence is a component, no matter what the Swarm wants.Quote:I don't get the sense that the Investors think their trading is likely to make them more capable of surviving -- although, maybe that doesn't really come out until "Spider Rose".Well, the Investors have control through their trading. They are not creators, but have survived pretty well by their control of trade and certain secrets of technology they have come upon. Ambition opposed to survival? I would think that there can be survival without ambition...but ambition can provide for survival among species that must compete for limited resources...and if your ambition is to control the material resources of a known universe, and you pursue that ambition adamantly, well then does that not help you and your society to survive?Quote:In that particular quote, it's only made applicable to the individual's survival, but that doesn't mean that he might not have extended it to the whole of society. A religious fundamentalist might say something to the effect of, "A society without faith in God isn't worth preserving"; a secular idealist might say, "A species that is incapable of mutual respect and harmony isn't worth saving." Taking things to that extreme is, I think, a possibility that is inherent in a free-roaming intelligence.Of course people with deep set beliefs would extend the concept to the society as a whole...this is partly why we have Crusades, Jihads and wars in general. But to an intelligent species, maybe a life without meaning IS useless and why should we care at all if, in the abscence of that meaning, we annihilate all life? I mean...without the human mind to ponder the past, who cares at all? If we were taken off the scene, what would it all mean and to whom? Why is directionless, menial existence worth preserving? I am being a bit overboard here...but you see what I mean I hope. What makes the Swarm so much better than everyone else?Quote:Otherwise, intelligence would allow us to transgress all those boundaries without giving us any way of knowing when we've gone too far.It is almost circular though, no? I mean...intelligence needed a check mechanism to prevent it from going too far...and our own intelligence dictates what IS too far. Apart from our POV...what does it all matter do you think? Is it a check so that we do not kill ourselves off? In which case, intelligence seems to actually provide a benefit to survival...to species that possess it...including the Swarm.Quote:the Swarm probably didn't follow that line of reasoning, but it had evolved a kind of defense against the threat of genetic conquest. And that points, I'd say, back to the issue of ambition.In what way? Are you saying the Swarm has ambition? Or that is is just a huge response mechanism?Quote:And once the main character (wish I could remember his name) secures his own survival at the end of the story, conversation again becomes a luxury he can afford.Yup. I agree. Thanks for helping it jell in my head. But it is actually the Swarm intelligence that seems eager to converse...so intelligence must be interactive...yes?I think the character's name was Afriel?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[Mr. P]

Quote:I don't know that it could have been entirely planned.Maybe not entirely planned...but they had to know that they were leaving a potentially dangerous life-form with little instructions with Rose. The Investors are portrayed as very upstanding businessmen (did I mention that I find it amusing that these corporate-like, business tycoons are Lizards! lol), so I do not think they did anything to break the rules...but I think they were vague about what this was. Just like a good businessman. Or maybe they really did not know...they are also described as not too inquisitive into things.I think that this creature may not need be eaten to absorb others...but that is speculation as there is no evidence to support this in the story.Quote:"Peter Schlemiel, the man who sold his shadow"..."The Charwoman's Shadow"...But I digress...Maybe you did...but at least I have two other stories to check out!Quote:what would you say the story suggests? Well...Rose is a totally secluded being...physically and emotionally. Now she is part of a creature that is all about interaction with others. She beat down her memories and longings with drugs and shielded her being with her web...a true spider lying in wait for her prey.Quote:Does it tell us anything significant about the Mechanists?Well obviously it does...but are all Mechanists like Rose? 200 years old? I am not sure if that is touched upon. Mechanists are all about technology as an aide to survival, and the Shapers are all about biological augmentation, as I see it from the two stories.Quote:Extending from that, the pet thrives on connection, while Rose is content to disconnect herself from society altogether. But we see Rose coming out of that shell througout the interaction with the Pet. She goes through some emotional longings and starts to feel a connection with this creature...and then she eats it...as she eats and devours all other longings and pangs of emotion she has. But in the end, she is devoured. I wonder who made the pet...? I thought it may have been the Shapers...but it is way too advanced.Is the Mechanist isolation natural to them do you think or is it purposely induced in deference to their ideology of being? Without the drugs, Rose's emotions come on strong and she becomes more 'human'..but when she smashes her surpressed emotions, she is quite the efficient machine.Quote:that the mechanists try to behave according to "routines", like the routines and sub-routines of a computer program. Anyway, it's a workable starting point... I can see that...at the beginning of the story with Rose plugged into her surveillance system..and how she processes the data and becomes the machine.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[MadArchitect]

misterpessimistic: So intelligence is not necessary to create faction but makes the ultimate reality of faction more aggressive and dangerous because we REALIZE that there are factions and that promoting our own will lead to fulfillment of our own goals?No, at least in the Shaper/Mechanist universe, I'd say that intelligence was necessary to the creation of the factions. These are factions centered around different notions of how to progress the whole species. I don't think it would be possible to create that sort of division without a rather complex intelligence.I tend the think that intelligence and the ability to reason would be enough to overcome the base intstincts in our speices...maybe this is so, but we have yet to reach the appropriate levels to make this so?I think Swarm would argue that they're base instincts only because we've labelled them so -- again, a function of intelligence.Wait...does Swarm have control or is it just an evolved entity? I see the Swarm as a conglomerate of beings, yet evolved into a single entity.As I understand it, Swarm blurs the line between entity and community. I'd say that, for the most part, whatever it has that qualifies as control is mostly a set of highly evolved responses that preserve a kind of status quo. Some element of free will apparantly arises whenever the Swarm Intelligence is activated, but that comes with built in limits (life-span, immobility, etc).I would think that there can be survival without ambition...but ambition can provide for survival among species that must compete for limited resources...and if your ambition is to control the material resources of a known universe, and you pursue that ambition adamantly, well then does that not help you and your society to survive?A lot depend, as usual, on how you look at the term. I'd say that ambition is most recognizable as a kind of gamble, putting your neck on the line to get some sort of gain. When it succeeds, it may make survival easier to come by. When it fails, it works against the instinct of survival. But most evolved instincts don't gamble like that -- they're rooted in strategies that have survived precisely because they're more likely to ensure survival. It's the difference between playing system blackjack, and betting everything on a good hand when it comes along.But to an intelligent species, maybe a life without meaning IS useless and why should we care at all if, in the abscence of that meaning, we annihilate all life?Right, but instinct doesn't really consider the value of life. It preserves life simply because it's been evolved to do so. There's a circularity to the whole thing that denies meaning; you have to bring meaning in from the outside, and I don't think that's possible until you have a kind of abstract intelligence.Why is directionless, menial existence worth preserving? I am being a bit overboard here...but you see what I mean I hope. What makes the Swarm so much better than everyone else?No, I see where you're going with that. 99% of the time, I think Swarm wouldn't. It can shut its intelligence on and off, so it sees that kind of speculation as counter-productive.In what way? Are you saying the Swarm has ambition? Or that it is just a huge response mechanism?I'd say the Swarm is antithetical to ambition. Every species that has come against it, it's stamped out the fire of their ambition. I'll get back to "Spider Rose" later on. Good conversation, so far, no?

[MadArchitect]

To anyone else following along, we've moved the short story discussions to the Short Story forum. Once we get around to discussing "Schismatrix" itself, we'll be using this thread again. Cheers!

[Avi Seldom]

If you like cyberpunk there is a classic anthology called Mirrorshades, it has a story by Bruce Sterling too. I've recently discovered True Names, it's like the book who started it, haven't read it yet but it's all over the web, you can read it online.One of sterling works would be a good discussion book, Ill vote for it if you make the suggestion MadArchitect.

[MadArchitect]

I think you should make the suggestion, Avi. I make a lot of suggestions around here, but I would prefer to see other people getting really involved in the suggestion and selection process. That, to me, is the best assurance that they'll be involved when it comes time to actually read and discuss the books we've chosen.(Ps. I'd prefer that you suggest a Sterling novel that you haven't already read, but that you're interested in reading. In my experience, you're more likely to read and get involved in the discussion if you're dealing with fresh material.)

[Avi Seldom]

Hey give me a break I'm new ;)I've already suggested five books it was just a piece of information for the cyberpunk fans around here.

[MadArchitect]

We loves us some newbies.