prayer

[Murrill]

Prayer is a way to focus collective intentions. It depends what you pray for. I would be happy to pray in church for people to abandon their delusions and accept a scientific account of reality. But this would not reflect the earnest wishes of most Christians, and might get me kicked out the door. Often prayer is just a way of reinforcing collective psychosis, as in petitions for intervention of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Miracles are not possible, so prayers that God will act contrary to the laws of physics only reinforce a very delusory mindset.

Robert,
Love the reference to "collective psychosis." Very apropos. I spend some time each day with a "spiritual practice" called A Course in Miracles. Some people call it New Age, some call it crazy. Anyway, my point here is that "miracle" is redefined. Instead of it being something extraordinary, a miracle is when things are as it should be. I read an interview with Stephen Hawking today in which he referred to "God" as "the embodiment of the laws of nature." I like that.
As always, thank you for an insightful post.

[lady of shallot]

Harry Marks

So is there something wrong with asking humbly for something? I suspect you are focusing on "beg".
I rather like the term "implore".

Well there is in my estimation. why would I want to be in a relationship (by choice) of such a power differential? Its o.k. with me if other people pray but some of us are quite comfortable without it.

I like neither the term "beg" or "implore" they both are craven to me. Oh and I don't like Dr. Phil. He is an egotist.

[Dawn]

A discussion of prayer is meaningless without defining the terms. Who are we addressing? On what basis? What is the motive? Why would we expect a response? To try to address the topic of ‘prayer’ without specifying these parameters can lead to no meaningful conclusions.

Prayer that has effect is communication with the God Almighty of the Bible.

Prayer is not only about asking for things; it is conversation with God, both speaking and listening.

Such conversation is the especial domain of those who have a relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ. To expect to boldly present requests and carry on a conversation with a King to whom you have no right of approach, or no connection is obviously a futile expectation. Coming as a repentant sinner asking forgiveness is prerequisite.

“the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save,
or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
2 but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear." Is.59:1,2

Contrary to popular opinion among prayer-bashers who claim to have ‘evidence’: "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." Ja.5:16 But it’s essential to understand the parameters of prayer.

[Interbane]

To try to address the topic of ‘prayer’ without specifying these parameters can lead to no meaningful conclusions.

That's a recipe for fabrication. What objective item or event would you reference, when you "specify" the parameters? Is there anything 'out there' in reality that you would reference? Or would you specify the terms based on definitions, and bible scripture? Unless you test your ideas against reality, you have no way to gauge the truth of your beliefs. Internal consistency, and the rationale of background elements do not move this belief system closer to being true. The only yardstick is reality itself.

When prayer is tested against reality, it is shown to be nothing other than a placebo catalyst. To be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing. What is bad is expecting divine intervention rather than placebo(which would be self-defeating anyways). The placebo effect is great, it's chemical free healing. The associated delusion, in many cases, is the harmful element.

To expect to boldly present requests and carry on a conversation with a King to whom you have no right of approach, or no connection is obviously a futile expectation. Coming as a repentant sinner asking forgiveness is prerequisite.

Prayer is conclusively shown to be ineffective. We aren't making this up. It's not the opinion of a scientist. It's raw, hard data. Data that you could look up and analyze yourself, to see if you can find any problems with the parameters of the experiments, or it's results. I wonder if you realize that these results are mathematical, and the procedures used eliminate human influence are frustratingly effective. It's as close to the 'voice of the universe' as we can come, eliminating as many errant variables as possible until there is nothing left but the naked workings of nature. And what nature says is that prayer does not work. That is not an opinion.

[lady of shallot]

Dawn:

Prayer is not only about asking for things; it is conversation with God, both speaking and listening.

O.K. Dawn I do understand the words above but I do not understand what is said in the "listening" phase. I wonder if you could be so kind to us non-believers to give us an example of how this works. Could you do it in the form of actual dialogue (like in a play)

Could you reference an actual such experience you have had in prayer? I think we all have had the experience of being on the phone with someone and speaking and then realizing that we have been cut off so there is no reply.

When you listen for such a reply does it always come forth? Are the words other than what you would have said to yourself? Are you ever surprised?

[realiz]

Prayer causes no effect, as has been repeatedly demonstrated scientifically, but still lazy people opt to take the easy route and pretend they are doing someone, or themselves, some good by communicating with their deity. Instead of actually helping the person that they are praying for

It has been my experience, limited though it is, that people who do pray also care and people who care also take action. Praying does seem to affect the person doing the praying in a positive way (placebo effect) which can benefit those around them.

Prayer is not only about asking for things; it is conversation with God, both speaking and listening.

This I do not believe and it is probably quite dangerous thinking. Prayer might be about finding inner answers, solutions, or comfort, but any message that might be coming through is coming through your own mind.

Chirs Said: You're falling out of an airplane and you realize you forgot your parachute. You long for a parachute, yet you understand that a parachute will not materialize out of thin air. Yet, oddly you still long for one.

Your wife and best friend dies of cancer in your arms. For the balance of your life you long for her in so many ways, yet you are abundantly aware that no matter how much you long for her she is gone forever.

Yes, people long for many things that are completely unachievable.

If you were falling out of an airplane and you prayed for a parachute, or some miracle landing that would save your life, I'd have to agree that you are wasting your time, but if you prayed for bravery, strength, or a quick ending, you might experience peace in those final moments.

If you longed desperately for your dead wife and were having a hard time facing life without her, prayer might comfort you and help you to move forward and find meaning. This is not unachievable.

And what nature says is that prayer does not work. That is not an opinion.

Placebos really do work. They work through belief and expectation and the inner working of brain and body. Someone may be healed because 50,000 people are praying for him and he believes that it will help him.

[Harry Marks]

realiz -

You have grasped the essential points. Placebos do work. They even work when you tell people you are giving them a pill that is inert or made of sugar. The simple process of following a procedure and doing something you are told to do can act positively on health.

Sometimes we have a really reductionist view of what it means for something to work. If it works by influencing our attitudes and mindset, that does not change the fact that it is working.

But you missed the counterpart concept. Listening to God can happen by listening to our imagination. We may be "channeling" God. And that is a perfectly sensible way for God to speak: a message coming through your mind. God mostly works in and through events, influencing conceptually, rather than mainly acting on events. Don't be so reductionist about what you accept as an act of God. You don't want to find yourself agreeing with fundamentalists, do you?

[lady of shallot]

Harry:

Listening to God can happen by listening to our imagination. We may be "channeling" God.

Say what?

For sure if you think you are listening to God by listening to your imagination you are definitely listening to your imagination, not God. Which may not be a bad thing, if being quiet and still allows you to focus on your own thoughts.

[Dawn]

To try to address the topic of ‘prayer’ without specifying these parameters can lead to no meaningful conclusions.

That's a recipe for fabrication. What objective item or event would you reference, when you "specify" the parameters? Is there anything 'out there' in reality that you would reference? Or would you specify the terms based on definitions, and bible scripture? Unless you test your ideas against reality, you have no way to gauge the truth of your beliefs. Internal consistency, and the rationale of background elements do not move this belief system closer to being true. The only yardstick is reality itself.

Though it will give you no satisfaction, I am satisfied to let God set the parameters simply because it is to Him that I am speaking and He is the one who has made this possible and set the rules. When prayer is tested against the reality of praying believers it is obvious that it 'works'. I will boldly assume that I have far more experience here than you do--a lifetime of it first and second hand. It means nothing to me that scientists sit in labs praying and measuring results! Is this the way you would analyze whether a conversation with your wife is effective? get a robot to do the talking so as to remove the human factor. What is a personal relationship without the human factor? This is an area I will not trust to 'science' except informally. And 'hands-down' I have seen sufficient evidence that prayer is magnificently effective.

When prayer is tested against reality, it is shown to be nothing other than a placebo catalyst. To be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing. What is bad is expecting divine intervention rather than placebo(which would be self-defeating anyways). The placebo effect is great, it's chemical free healing. The associated delusion, in many cases, is the harmful element.

I to believe that the human brain is very powerful and the way we think will affect our bodies. This can be evidenced scientifically I would assume, though perhaps not conclusively as it would be difficult to eliminate bias and personal variation... But belief in the placebo effect does nothing to undermine the facts that God hears when His people pray and He acts in response. Nature does not explain everything.

To expect to boldly present requests and carry on a conversation with a King to whom you have no right of approach, or no connection is obviously a futile expectation. Coming as a repentant sinner asking forgiveness is prerequisite.

Prayer is conclusively shown to be ineffective. We aren't making this up. It's not the opinion of a scientist. It's raw, hard data.

I would reiterate-- the parameters matter. To whom is this prayer addressed? By whom? On what grounds? For what motive? Your data is skewed. Read more widely. This is not the domain of skeptics. Effective prayer is offered in faith. Could this be the missing element in your data tables?

Mind if I pray for you?

[Dawn]

Dawn:

Prayer is not only about asking for things; it is conversation with God, both speaking and listening.

O.K. Dawn I do understand the words above but I do not understand what is said in the "listening" phase. I wonder if you could be so kind to us non-believers to give us an example of how this works. Could you do it in the form of actual dialogue (like in a play)

Could you reference an actual such experience you have had in prayer? ...

When you listen for such a reply does it always come forth? Are the words other than what you would have said to yourself? Are you ever surprised?

I don't wish to be rude, but I will not attempt to recreate a dialogue of my conversations with God in this context, any more than you would be likely to repeat a private conversation with an intimate friend here. But even if I were to do so, it would not accomplish what you hope simply because spiritual things are not comprehensible to the non-spiritual person. I don't mean this in any haughty sense, only that a believer has an alive spirit, while those who do not believe don't have this capacity. The Bible puts it this way:

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. I Corinthians 2:14

Having said that, the answers to your further questions you could answer yourself by referencing conversations you have with your husband. Does he always just say what you were thinking anyway? Likely with age and time spent together, your thoughts more closely parallel each other. In the same sense a believer grows in his ability to think God's thoughts. This is the goal, trading my erroneous ways of thinking for His truth... Am I ever surprised? Yep. Being human, with imperfect faith. It is often a 'surprise' to know that God has heard me and cares to respond in meaningful ways. His thoughts are most often not my thoughts, but far better.

"let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Is.55:7-9