prayer

[Murrill]

It seems to be important to you to give parsimonious explanations, but what you miss is that prayer is not science, nor even an instrumental activity like generating electricity. We really don't much care what the scientific explanation is, and in fact, being conscious of the science interferes with the activity. It would be like asking a chess grandmaster or a parent having an intimate conversation with their child to stop and think about neurons firing and how the connections might have arisen. That's just dumb. Explaining is for explainers. Praying is for those who pray.

It occurs to me more and more often as I age that science and spirituallity are not dichotomous. That is, the "rules" apply across the board. I consider myself atheist, albeit one who recognizes and appreciates a spiritual connection with the universe. It just seems to me that your God of religion, whom I assume created all this science and its esoteric mumbo-jumbo, might be offended that you can so compartmentalize what you hear.

Automatic writing has nothing to do with and is in no way like prayer. Prayer is total involvement of the person in conversation with God.

I have known many people who pray, and they describe the experience as being one in which they first express themselves, and then they listen. My own practice of meditation might be similarly described: I clear my mind, suspending judgements and preconceptions, and make myself available to what might arise. I do not see this as so dramatically diffferent from Lady of Shallot's experience with automatic writing. While the approaches might vary, I suggest that the essences are quite similar. For my own practices...well, I'm not afraid of what I may see, hear, or think. I expect that is something that separates me from the Christians of my youth: They submit to a fabled being that damns and punishes and smites. Not enough love in that for me. I'll take automatic writing over empty religious ritual anyday.

[lady of shallot]

Stahrwe:

Automatic writing has nothing to do with and is in no way like prayer. Prayer is total involvement of the person in conversation with God.

Although not my purpose at the time (prayer) I would recommend automatic writing to those who wish to pray in a more effective way. First the paper and pencil involved give a focus to the mind and the unsupported arm lends a feeling of discomfort that leads directly to the purpose of the exercise; which of course is knowing one's own mind (what the religious refer to as a dialogue with God) in a more direct and fulsome way.

[Interbane]

The first thing to grasp is that, even though those offering prayers often think of the activity as having influence on a supernatural agent, the real way prayer works is not mainly via this assumption but by an influence of the activity on the spirit of the person praying. Or, if the term spirit sounds supernatural to you, on the mind of the person praying.

This is the way I believe prayer works as well, the effects you describe are precisely what placebo effect is. I understand that this works, even if I'm not sure of the mechanism. Daniel Dennet provides an interesting explanation for the placebo effect, namely how it would have been beneficial to have been an evolved phenomenon.

It seems to be important to you to give parsimonious explanations, but what you miss is that prayer is not science, nor even an instrumental activity like generating electricity.

I'm not mistakenly categorizing prayer in a way that I shouldn't. I understand it is more meditative and soothing, and to explain it in the moment would be ridiculous. But this is not the moment. This is a forum where we discuss such things at arm's length. If I get a phone call about some family emergency, I won't come on to Booktalk and critically analyze it. I will turn off the computer and close my eyes and meditate, to get emotionally centered. The atheistic version of prayer, if you will.

I understand this is the not place to pray. But it is certainly the place to examine prayer. If prayer has always been one of those phenomena that you refuse to examine, I would wonder why. Are you afraid that if you examine it too closely, that even the placebo effect will disappear?

So, to return to the immediately preceding discussion, the fact that thoughts are my thoughts does not preclude them from being the thoughts of God as well.

Do you believe your thoughts are sometimes the thoughts of god? If answers are able to coalesce from your own brain without any outside assistance, then what reason do you have to believe there is another intelligent agent influencing your thoughts? It's an extremely untenable idea, and I can't find any way to make sense of it. It may be comforting to believe, but it is simply nonsensical. The human mind is incredible and easily capable of an infinite number of thoughts(not the total lump sum, but the possible recombination of ideas.)

It makes all the sense in the world to see the god of prayer as the placebo effect, and I've seen no reason nor evidence that leads to a different conclusion.

[stahrwe]

Stahrwe:

Automatic writing has nothing to do with and is in no way like prayer. Prayer is total involvement of the person in conversation with God.

Although not my purpose at the time (prayer) I would recommend automatic writing to those who wish to pray in a more effective way. First the paper and pencil involved give a focus to the mind and the unsupported arm lends a feeling of discomfort that leads directly to the purpose of the exercise; which of course is knowing one's own mind (what the religious refer to as a dialogue with God) in a more direct and fulsome way.

The goal of automatic writing is to remove the person/writer from the process. That is absolutely not what prayer is about. There is no instruction in the Bible to write prayers and the most effective means of assertaining God's will is through constant communion. Just as friendships are strengthened by spending time together, the same holds true with God.

[stahrwe]

Automatic writing has nothing to do with and is in no way like prayer. Prayer is total involvement of the person in conversation with God.

I have known many people who pray, and they describe the experience as being one in which they first express themselves, and then they listen. My own practice of meditation might be similarly described: I clear my mind, suspending judgements and preconceptions, and make myself available to what might arise. I do not see this as so dramatically diffferent from Lady of Shallot's experience with automatic writing. While the approaches might vary, I suggest that the essences are quite similar. For my own practices...well, I'm not afraid of what I may see, hear, or think. I expect that is something that separates me from the Christians of my youth: They submit to a fabled being that damns and punishes and smites. Not enough love in that for me. I'll take automatic writing over empty religious ritual anyday.

I would like to know how you do the highlighted. As for taking automatic writing you have selected nothing.

[Interbane]

I would like to know how you do the highlighted. As for taking automatic writing you have selected nothing.

It's very difficult to completely blank out your mind, almost impossible. A few seconds, then visions and thoughts creep back in. Predispositions, if you're aware of them, can be neutralized by temporarily believing the opposite. The goal is what it feels like, rather than what you'd think it's like, which is hard to explain if you haven't yet recognized it. There is emotion attached to most if not all our thoughts and beliefs. Some emotions strengthen conviction, and some seem to undermine it. This emotion is present no matter the truth value of the belief. It exists for reasons other than the truthfulness of our beliefs. You can sense the "feeling of knowing" by contemplating the feeling after being shown that something you "thought" was right was actually false. The feeling is distinct, and recognizable. If you're clearing your head and trying to find some answers, recognizing these emotive influences then stripping them from your thoughts as best you can is a great way to "intuit" answers; you're essentially freeing up your mind to consider new perspectives. The two techniques are mutually exclusive, and there are other ways to meditate if you're having other struggles. Hope that helps.

[lady of shallot]

There is no instruction in the Bible to write prayers

Hum, gee I wonder why? could it be because most people were illiterate, no means of writing and the Bible derived from verbal myths?

Are the communications among the faithful today done exclusively as in Biblical times or do they use things like computers and the internet?

[stahrwe]

There is no instruction in the Bible to write prayers

Hum, gee I wonder why? could it be because most people were illiterate, no means of writing and the Bible derived from verbal myths?

Are the communications among the faithful today done exclusively as in Biblical times or do they use things like computers and the internet?

You're really not familiar with the Bible are you. In fact, many of those who attended Jesus were literate, they wrote the Gospels and letters remember. Enough said!

[lady of shallot]

You're really not familiar with the Bible are you. In fact, many of those who attended Jesus were literate, they wrote the Gospels and letters remember. Enough said!

No, not like you are. Of course I know about Paul's letters which of course are real, but since Jesus did not exist and therefore did not have any attendants then whether they were literate or not is moot.

[Harry Marks]

The first thing to grasp is that, even though those offering prayers often think of the activity as having influence on a supernatural agent, the real way prayer works is not mainly via this assumption but by an influence of the activity on the spirit of the person praying. Or, if the term spirit sounds supernatural to you, on the mind of the person praying.

This is the way I believe prayer works as well, the effects you describe are precisely what placebo effect is. I understand that this works, even if I'm not sure of the mechanism. Daniel Dennet provides an interesting explanation for the placebo effect, namely how it would have been beneficial to have been an evolved phenomenon.

Interbane,
People tend to be pretty dismissive of the placebo effect. Often they will willingly spend big money for a chemical that has known side effects and makes a much smaller difference than the placebo effect, just because it is "scientifically proven." Not necessarily very smart. An activity that works should not be dismissed by scientists just because they can't make use of the user's explanation of how it works.

I would note that the placebo effect is inherently social. And that is what is missing from your dismissive "explanation" of prayer.

It seems to be important to you to give parsimonious explanations, but what you miss is that prayer is not science, nor even an instrumental activity like generating electricity.

I'm not mistakenly categorizing prayer in a way that I shouldn't. I understand it is more meditative and soothing, and to explain it in the moment would be ridiculous. But this is not the moment. This is a forum where we discuss such things at arm's length. If I get a phone call about some family emergency, I won't come on to Booktalk and critically analyze it. I will turn off the computer and close my eyes and meditate, to get emotionally centered. The atheistic version of prayer, if you will.

I understand this is the not place to pray. But it is certainly the place to examine prayer. If prayer has always been one of those phenomena that you refuse to examine, I would wonder why. Are you afraid that if you examine it too closely, that even the placebo effect will disappear?

So, to return to the immediately preceding discussion, the fact that thoughts are my thoughts does not preclude them from being the thoughts of God as well.

Do you believe your thoughts are sometimes the thoughts of god? If answers are able to coalesce from your own brain without any outside assistance, then what reason do you have to believe there is another intelligent agent influencing your thoughts? It's an extremely untenable idea, and I can't find any way to make sense of it. It may be comforting to believe, but it is simply nonsensical. The human mind is incredible and easily capable of an infinite number of thoughts(not the total lump sum, but the possible recombination of ideas.)

It makes all the sense in the world to see the god of prayer as the placebo effect, and I've seen no reason nor evidence that leads to a different conclusion.

First, prayer is not always meditative and soothing. Sometimes it is actively engaged and energetic. Sometimes it is desperate and anguished. I repeat that it is not an instrumental activity - I don't engage in prayer for a placebo or any other "effect". I engage in prayer to dialogue with the infinite. Why should I examine it? Why should I care whether my thoughts representing a response are externally influenced or just subconsciously channeling a social spirit? For that matter, why should you care? Our relationship to that which ultimately matters is there whether we like it or not, and we may think we are interrogating it, but life makes clear that it is patiently interrogating us. Did you do that which really matters to you? Did you do that which really matters to humans, and to human meaning?

There are clearly many other intelligent agents influencing my thoughts - other people. I do not mean that they reach in telepathically and shift neurons around. I mean that they influence me all the time, and the context of my prayer influences my interpretations. Positing one more "Oversoul" level to the interaction is just a part, and I am not even sure it is the key part, to how that works. I am sorry you can make no sense of this, but may I suggest it is for the same reason you are uninterested in placebos, which is that you have donned the specs of science that deny lots of social experience as invalid.