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The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Interbane

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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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For Interbane, I am beginning a major project and don't have time to spoon feed you anymore but still would if it would do any good. In this case the good of the many must outweigh the good of the few, or the Interbane.
I'm not a variable in your problem. What you posted may be evidence of historicity of someone, but there is no information showing that these characters were real as described by the bible. Holding my hand won't eliminate this problem. If you tell me that there is in fact evidence for each and every biblical passage which refers to David and Solomon, I won't care enough to follow up. I will simply believe you, because some of the stories must be based on truth. You don't need to switch into deluded denial mode simply because an error is pointed out. You didn't have enough information to support your conclusion, don't blame me for it.
"his words are unimportant, and we do not hear them."
Rather than stick my fingers in my ears and pretend RT isn't here, I read his post. There is information in his post that's contrary to your position Stahrwe. You may want to pretend his words are unimportant so you don't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance. The less of it you have, the easier delusion is to maintain.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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I'll post some relevant material on this topic:
DM Murdock wrote:What about the Mesha Stele, Tel Dan Stele and Black Obelisk?

The Mesha Stele, Tel Dan Stele and Black Obelisk are among the artifacts used by Bible-thumpers to claim that the Good Book is confirmed as "history." While the brief mentions of "Israel," "David" or other king of Israel in these artifacts may serve to establish that Israel existed and that certain biblical kings were real, they do not prove that major, supernatural events of the Bible actually happened on Earth at any time in history.

The Patriarchs are the Gods of Other Cultures

In the first place, mythicists and Bible-minimalists generally do not claim that there is no history in the Bible or that all biblical characters are mythical. What becomes obvious from studying as much of the evidence as we have is that a number of major characters like Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon are evidently mythical figures, the former three obviously based on pre-Judaic gods, while the latter two may be a combination of Canaanite/Levantine gods, along with petty thanes who actually lived.

I make this qualification as concerns David and Solomon only because we know that there were rulers of ancient tribes in Israel, and some of their exploits are certainly recorded in the Old Testament. However, the names "Da-'u'dum" (David), "Sa-'u-lum" (Saul) and other patriarchs appear in older tablets from Ebla, so it would be reckless to assume that they are entirely historical individuals who lived and died in Israel.

The original name for Solomon is "Shĕlomoh" or "Shlomo," but it was translated in the Greek Old Testament/Septuagint as Σαλωμων or "Salomon." "Solomon," it has been pointed out, is the sun in three languages: Sol, Om, On. For more on the Solomon, see The Christ Conspiracy.

To recap, there is both myth and history in the Bible, although the latter has been reduced significantly by the hard sciences, particularly archaeology. The discipline needed to understand the Bible better is mythology, which is sorely overlooked - quite bizarrely, in consideration of all the supernatural and patently mythical events depicted in The Book. A study of mythology and ancient religion reveals their numerous astrotheological underpinnings. Without these disciplines, we cannot recognize what we are seeing in various biblical tales.

Knowing the massive body of literature in this field of biblical mythology, we approach these artifacts differently.

The Mesha Stele
The Mesha Stele (popularized in the 19th century as the "Moabite Stone") is a black basalt stone bearing an inscription by the 9th century BC ruler Mesha of Moab.

The inscription was set up about 840 BC as a memorial of Mesha's victories over "Omri king of Israel" and his son, who had been "oppressing" Moab. It bears the earliest known reference to the sacred Hebrew name of God - YHWH - and is also notable as the most extensive inscription ever recovered that refers to ancient Israel (the "House of Omri"). French scholar André Lemaire has reconstructed a portion of line 31 of the stele as "House of David".
Image
While the Mesha Stele is interesting in that it evidently represents an early record of Israel and the purported biblical king Omri, I would exercise caution in accepting the reconstruction of Dr. Lemaire of "House of David," without seeing peer consensus, because he is a Catholic known to get a bit too enthusiastic about tying things into the Bible. See, for example, his work on the so-called James Ossuary, which is considered to be bogus. In this regard, the Wiki article says that "..in 2001 another French scholar, Pierre Bordreuil, reported (in an essay in French) that he and a few other scholars could not confirm Lemaire's reading." Wiki's conclusion: "The identification of David in the Mesha stele remains controversial."

Even if this stele did say "House of David," all that fact would prove is that there was a prominent figure named David, which we already know from the Ebla tablets, which predate this find by several hundred years. Indeed, if "Da-'u'dum" was a Canaanite god, hero or ruler, we would expect to make a find like this one. In any event, the discovery certainly does not prove the events regarding the character of David in the Old Testament as "historical."

The value of this stele is not in proving but in disproving elements of the biblical account that turn out to be propaganda from an Israelite perspective, of course. To my knowledge, there is no big issue about the existence of Israel at the time of this stele's inscription or of a ruler named Omri.

Again, we are not claiming that there is no history in the Bible. In some of the later books, there apparently is history, although the book of Daniel - which is for the most part evidently a late addition from the second century before the common era - may be in significant part yet another fictional text concerning older Canaanite heroes and gods that has been reworked. For more on the Daniel myth, see The Christ Conspiracy.

The Tel Dan Stele
The Tel Dan Stele is a black basalt stele discovered during excavations at Tel Dan in northern Israel. It was erected by an Aramaean king and contains an Aramaic inscription commemorating victories over local ancient peoples including "Israel" and the "House of David."
Also according to Wiki, Aramaic is supposedly 3,000 years old, so the stela could very well date to the era it is claimed (9th-8th cents. BCE). Nevertheless, as concerns the phrase "House of David," see the above. Also, however, if this is an artifact that dates to several centuries after the purported existence of David, we would not be terribly surprised, since by that time the phrase would already be in currency, because the Bible already existed, at least orally.

Yet, this artifact would not prove that this revered David had actually walked the earth. Again, he could be - and likely is - an ancient pre-Judaic god made into a Jewish patriarch. Another alternative is that the petty thane ruler of the appropriate era was named after an ancient tribal god - this sort of development involving rulers, priests and commoners alike has occurred countless times.

In any case, a victory over the "House of David" does not prove that David was an actual historical character, any more than the "House of Moloch" would do likewise for that ancient Semitic god. Practically all tribes have had a divine figurehead under whose banner - and "House" - they have marched.

The Wiki article about this artifact concludes:
Due to the mention of both "Israel" and the "House of David", the Tel Dan Stele is often quoted as supporting evidence for the Bible. However, critics have suggested other readings of ביתדוד, usually based on the fact that the written form "DWD" can be rendered both as David and as Dod (Hebrew for "beloved") or related forms.
Here are a couple more threads on this forum where you might be able to glean some info - these can be found using the search feature:

The Bibles Buried Secrets - PBS Documentary
King David and Jerusalem- Myth and Reality

The Black Obelisk
The "Black Obelisk" of Shalmaneser III (reigned 858-824 BC) is a black limestone Neo-Assyrian bas-relief sculpture from Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), in northern Iraq. It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it displays the earliest ancient depiction of an Israelite.
This artifact evidently proves the existence of the Israelite King Jehu, c. 841 BCE. See above where I discuss the Bible as history - to my knowledge, no one has ever stated that none of the numerous kings in the Old Testament is historical. Hence, all this stela does is prove that there is some history in the Bible, not that the fantastic, supernatural events therein are indeed historical.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Interbane wrote:
For Interbane, I am beginning a major project and don't have time to spoon feed you anymore but still would if it would do any good. In this case the good of the many must outweigh the good of the few, or the Interbane.
I'm not a variable in your problem. What you posted may be evidence of historicity of someone, but there is no information showing that these characters were real as described by the bible. Holding my hand won't eliminate this problem. If you tell me that there is in fact evidence for each and every biblical passage which refers to David and Solomon, I won't care enough to follow up. I will simply believe you, because some of the stories must be based on truth. You don't need to switch into deluded denial mode simply because an error is pointed out. You didn't have enough information to support your conclusion, don't blame me for it.
There are several instances recorded in the Bible where David, on the run from Saul manages to sneak up on Saul while he is distracted making dirt. Would you like me to produce Saul's dung for you as evidence of the Bible's historicity? Your demand is typical of you in many ways.
"his words are unimportant, and we do not hear them."
interbane wrote:Rather than stick my fingers in my ears and pretend RT isn't here, I read his post. There is information in his post that's contrary to your position Stahrwe. You may want to pretend his words are unimportant so you don't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance. The less of it you have, the easier delusion is to maintain.
Perhaps you should have consulted Frank013 before you posted this as your response is completely off from what I was saying. You are obviously a Klingon with no experience with Capellans.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Dr McCoy
"his words are unimportant, and we do not hear them."
He then turns to Captain Kirk and says
”I just called the klingon a liar.”
“Fridays child” good episode.

Later
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Here's some more relevant material from former pastor and well credentialed Hector Avalos:
"Hector Avalos is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical Studies. Join us for a fascinating presentation detailing how the more we discover about the ancient world, the less reliable we find the Bible.

Part 1
http://tinyurl.com/2x86y2

Part 2
http://tinyurl.com/2bmm9h
Part 1 deals specifically with the error involved with the biblical archaeologists in favor of David and Solomon, and there are many. For the casual browser of this thread part 1 is a must see.
Last edited by tat tvam asi on Tue May 17, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Frank 013 wrote:
Dr McCoy
"his words are unimportant, and we do not hear them."
He then turns to Captain Kirk and says
”I just called the klingon a liar.”
“Fridays child” good episode.

Later
Julie Newmar.

You are probably too young to appreciate that name. Too bad for you.
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stahrwe

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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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tat tvam asi wrote:Here's some more relevant material from former pastor and well credentialed Hector Avalos:
"Hector Avalos is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical Studies. Join us for a fascinating presentation detailing how the more we discover about the ancient world, the less reliable we find the Bible.

Part 1
http://tinyurl.com/2x86y2

Part 2
http://tinyurl.com/2bmm9h
Part 1 deals specifically with the error involved with the biblical archaeologists in favor of David and Solomon, and there are many. For the casual browser of this thread part 1 is a must see.
How about the transcript for this? Nova provides one for their video and even addresses the fact that there a few 'misguided' archaelogists who question David and Solomon but they are not taken seriously. Stop hiding behind videos and produce some transcripts.
NARRATOR: Although a minority of archaeologists continue to disagree, this convergence of the Bible, Egyptian chronology and Solomon's gates is powerful evidence that a great kingdom existed at the time of David and Solomon, spanning all of Israel, north and south, with its capital in Jerusalem. (Nova Transcrpt: The Bible's Buried Secrets, page 20 of 29)
Hecto Avalos is in the same category as Israel Finkelstein.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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stahrwe
Julie Newmar.

You are probably too young to appreciate that name. Too bad for you.
Hey, I watched the old 60s Batman!

Although I will admit that I didn’t realize that that was her on Star Trek until just now. :blush:

Later
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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stahrwe wrote:As for Robert Tulip, recalling Dr. McCoy's words to the Tier of the Ten Tribes I say, "his words are unimportant, and we do not hear them."
Stahrwe is a dangerous fool who has been indulged amazingly by Booktalk because Interbane and Frank love the front row seat at the workings of delusion. Now Stahrwe is posting shitty propaganda that slanders a great scholar in the title and content of a thread, and then gives the statement quoted here when called on it. Booktalk is being abused! This thread alone should be grounds to suspend Stahrwe for a month, if not take the ethical action of banning him completely.

Take a step back from the entertainment and consider the content. Dumbing down is one thing, but giving Stahrwe a platform to proselytize and preach about obsolete idiocy is actually socially harmful, legitimising his ideas as within the bounds of acceptable rational discourse.

Since Stahrwe does not hear my words, I feel at liberty to speak over his head. The key point in my previous post that he did not hear was that Stahrwe is "shamelessly ignoring evidence to fraudulently assert that a false conclusion has some evidentiary basis". Stahrwe is a fraud and huckster, as bad as Jimmy Swaggart and Oral Roberts. Booktalk would be far better off without him as he drives away intelligent members. What a sigh of relief many people would express if Stahrwe were banned.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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There are several instances recorded in the Bible where David, on the run from Saul manages to sneak up on Saul while he is distracted making dirt. Would you like me to produce Saul's dung for you as evidence of the Bible's historicity? Your demand is typical of you in many ways.
Without the dung, what do you have that justifies having belief over agnosticism? I doubt you'll find any evidence. I'm sorry, I truly am. That is not my fault and it's not your fault. It's simply the state of affairs. These things happened too long ago, and most evidence is now forever in the past. So we are stuck with being agnostic. It's not my choice and it's not your choice. It is the way it is. The correct stance towards a claim that lacks support is agnostic(we don't have enough information to convince us it's true).

I'm not saying David didn't sneak up on Saul. I'm not taking a position. Frankly, such an occurance is ordinary, and happens all over the world every day(with other people). If you asked me whether or not David snuck up on Paul, and told me my life depended on it, I might very well say "yes"! But even if I selected "yes" as my answer, that answer is still unjustified, because there is no support for the claim. It is merely a guesstimate. I estimate that people sneak up on each frequently enough that such an occurance is likely to have occurred at some point in the past. I would say "yes", which would only be supported by faith in this instance, since the only valid evidence-based position with the information we have(too little) is agnostic.



If you say that David snuck up on Saul, does that mean you believe it? Show me your evidence that's capable of moving you from being agnostic towards this claim. Or do you mean that you simply have faith that it's true, since you realize you have no evidence(and can't produce any)?
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