The history of the Jews point to God existing. Jews exist.

[Frank 013]

Quote:There is no evidence of Socrates ever living. If you accept the life of Socrates based on the Dialogues of Plato then by that logic you should accept the life of Jesus by the gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.I again point out the important differences... Plato, as a first hand witness is considered a reliable source. Furthermore a person's own writings lend them some credit as well. Lastly there are no incredible accounts to make Socrates less believable, there is no reason not to believe the credible accounts of other people who met Socrates because he was just a simple philosopher.If you look back to the gospels you will find that the earliest writings were written at least 30 to 60 years after the alleged life of Jesus, not one of those writings can be used as first hand accounts. In addition none of the people you are defending have a single quote attributed to them outside of religious text, nothing of their own writings have survived and not a single outside source written during their lifetime supports their existence. Quote:BTW, Do you believe that Mohammad existed?Not especially, but if he did exist he was a sick perverted wacko!Later

[Frank 013]

The houris description comes from the quaran.The houris, who anyone but a retard will admit are there for sex, have similar descriptions as the young boys. This implies that the boys may have served the same purpose, besides no where in the Quran does it say what type of service the boys will endure, just that young diamond sparkling beautiful boys will be given.Why the very feminine description I wonder?Later

[Asana Bodhitharta]

Quote:052.024 YUSUFALI: Round about them will serve, Quote:besides no where in the Quran does it say what type of service the boys will endureWhat do you mean "endure"?Your mind is what seems to be sick.

[Frank 013]

Quote:What do you mean "endure"?The beautiful boys are given, as in property, how else would you describe a slaves service?And slaves throughout history have served in many capacities not the least of which was sexual in nature. Of course the Muslim religion feels the same way towards women so again the parallel stands. You also forgot to answer why do the boys have such a feminine description?Later

[Asana Bodhitharta]

They are servants as you may find at a wedding such as ring bearer or flower girl.You will often see a child serve food and be Adorable or Beautiful.Also Islam does not treat women like slaves and The Quaran is very specific about treating your woman well and letting her leave you if she is not happy with you.

[Frank 013]

Quote:They are servants as you may find at a wedding such as ring bearer or flower girl.You will often see a child serve food and be Adorable or Beautiful.Also Islam does not treat women like slaves and The Quaran is very specific about treating your woman well and letting her leave you if she is not happy with you.show me where it says this please.

[Asana Bodhitharta]

002.229 YUSUFALI: A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah; so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others). 004.128 YUSUFALI: If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 065.006 YUSUFALI: Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable. And if ye find yourselves in difficulties, let another woman suckle (the child) on the (father's) behalf. 060.011 YUSUFALI: And if any of your wives deserts you to the Unbelievers, and ye have an accession (by the coming over of a woman from the other side), then pay to those whose wives have deserted the equivalent of what they had spent (on their dower). And fear Allah, in Whom ye believe.

[Frank 013]

Well it's too bad that the bulk of the Muslim world does not hold to those beliefs, many consider their women property under the law and abuse is common, if these women are not considered slaves they are merely one step above, still being sold into marriage in some instances.I am not going to start studying the Quran now simply for this thread but I suspect that for every nice warm fuzzy you find in it I can find 2 acts of justified sick violent behavior. I expect that somewhere in the Quran it says something about the inferiority of women and certain justified punishments and violence toward them; I gather this because the most religious Muslim nations who enact religion into their law, seem to treat their women the worst.Anyway my point is this, just like Christianity, Islam is malleable and any behavior no matter how sick or violent can be justified in the name of God or Allah. I have already shown that there is ample evidence for the 72 virgin beliefs and that it is entirely possible for those beautiful boys to be used for homosexual purposes. But I doubt that you see it that way. Later

[MadArchitect]

Frank, my understanding of Islam is that it initially served to curb a lot of the misogynistic abuses of pre-Islamic Arab culture, making the world a much safer place for Arab women. Even customs that, from the modern perspective, seem abusive, like the hadith and the burka, were initially reforms that protected women from the objectification and violence that were all out of proportion to anything we know in Westernized nations. If that is genuinely the case, then it may well be that the abuses we see in modern Islamic cultures are as much a resurgence of the culture that preceded the Mohommedan revalation as they are any form of direct relation to Islam itself.At any rate, this looks like a tangent to Asana's original argument, which he seems to be having a difficult time maintaining.

[Asana Bodhitharta]

Quote:Frank, my understanding of Islam is that it initially served to curb a lot of the misogynistic abuses of pre-Islamic Arab culture, making the world a much safer place for Arab women. Even customs that, from the modern perspective, seem abusive, like the hadith and the burka, were initially reforms that protected women from the objectification and violence that were all out of proportion to anything we know in Westernized nations. If that is genuinely the case, then it may well be that the abuses we see in modern Islamic cultures are as much a resurgence of the culture that preceded the Mohommedan revalation as they are any form of direct relation to Islam itself.At any rate, this looks like a tangent to Asana's original argument, which he seems to be having a difficult time maintaining. Actually, this is the correct view. Women not covered up at one point were subject to molestation. Islam is about equality and not about any misogynistic behavior.That was a really good post.