Atheism vs. freethought - an important discussion

[MaesterAuron151]

Quote:Are all freethinkers atheists?This is where we run into muddy waters. In my opinion you can't be a freethinker AND believe in a God or gods. Yes, I've read the essays and articles where some master wordsmith breaks down the terms and argues that freethinking doesn't always lead a person to atheism. I just don't buy it. And I'm not going to go any further here with that point.Can a theist be a freethinker?As I stated above I don't see it as possible. Anyone who believes in a God or gods has failed at thinking clearly. I believe this VERY STRONGLY. The problem is this is my "opinion" and everyone has an opinion. There is no absolute proof that a deity doesn't exist, so I'm now forced to accept theists and their claim that they have thought things through just as carefully and critically as me, and this freethought process has led them to a different conclusion. I just don't buy this at all.I'm asking the above questions for a reason. I'm exhausted with the arguing and semantics here on BookTalk. I'm an atheist and would like this community to focus on books that teach the values and logic of an atheist universe (David Mills term!).So you believe that it is impossible to come to any conclusions other then your own unless an outside force prohibits them.Suppose I said a free thinker couldn't be a liberal because I've arrived at the conclusion that concervatism is the superior political stance through critical thinking.Its popluar to claim that those who disagree with you do so because they lack the same information as you, because they have an alterior motive or any other such dismissal.But the truth is the answers we all seek can't ever be found. In the end I believe it comes down to a basic instinctual belief. If any real conclusion existed it would immediately overwhelm the inferior arguments. Now people don't like to acknowledge the feeble nature of their own opinions. To view fundamental beliefs as a mere preference would be catastrophic to one's ego. What better way to force someone to recognize the true nature of their opinions then to expose them to an individual who poseses all the same information yet came to a different conclusion.Thus people become intolerent of these people and create ways of dismissing the opinions of others. To accept that the answers are unattainable at this time and approach debate with a level of detachment relieves the strain on one's ego.That is where free thinking has lead me.

[Dissident Heart]

When I think of "Freethinker", a few things come to mind:1. A person unwilling to knowingly deceive themselves; seeking out every trace of denial, minimization, avoidance and delusion in oneself...demanding honesty above all else from oneself and settling for nothing less than the truth...and if not the truth, then the closest thing free of self-deception.2. A person who puts an especially high premium upon thinking free of external coercion; rejecting ideas forced by threat of punishment and challenging beliefs held for fear of retribution, expulsion, or annihiliation...demanding autonomy above all else for oneself and settling for nothing less than the ability to makes up one's mind...and if not entirely settled, then open to arrive at conclusions freely constructed. 3. A person who thinks often about freedom; exposing systems and structures of tyranny and domination, oppression and abuse....demanding dignity above all else for oneself and settling for nothing less than the liberty to live as one chooses...and if not entirely of choice, then having genuine particpation in essential decision making.

[MaesterAuron151]

Nope still you still don't get it. I apologise if I'm getting snippy but this is very frustrating.Quote:You cannot be a theist without having made a leap of faith.Here is where your whole argument goes wrong. What has lead you to the conclusion that the only way a person could be a theist is if they made a leap of faith? You claim there is no evidence. Its not that there is no evidence its that the evidence remains debateable. Thus theism in general remains debateable hence the fact that people debate it.It is my conclusion that the reason we have debates is because on certain subjects we lack the information to firmly establish a meaningful conclusion. I don't think free thinking by the apparent definition is even possible. Everyone's beliefs are influenced by irrational forces. Our emotions cloud are judgement and in most cases force an oppinion one way or the other. Which brings me back to the whole conclusions thing. Edited by: MaesterAuron151 at: 11/27/06 12:23 am

[Asana Bodhitharta]

Quote:A theist believes in a god, gods, or divine power with no substantial evidence whatsoever.The god conclusion is not one made from facts, observable evidence or logic.I told you that I had experienced God.Do you think that the fact that you don't believe me makes the claim insubstantial?If I asked you, do you love someone and tell you to prove it how would you do it? Edited by: Asana Bodhitharta at: 11/27/06 12:26 am

[MaesterAuron151]

Quote:No, that's not it.It is a definition thing. I can't be a Doctor without a doctorate; you can't be a freethinker if you make leaps of faith.It's not about opinion.Ok now you're just projecting. I never claimed that you can make leaps of faith. You ignored entirely my argument and inserted that in its stead. You deliberately decieved yourself into thinking I made an argument I'd never made and what an odd conincidence the argument was childishly easy to counter.You my friend have missed the point entirely. Do me a favor before you reply go back to my posts and read them over. If you don't find anything inadequate about your responses read them again. If you still don't see an inadequacy just say so we can both give up.

[Frank 013]

You cannot be a theist without having made a leap of faith.A theist believes in a god, gods, or divine power with no substantial evidence whatsoever.The god conclusion is not one made from facts, observable evidence or logic.In order to come to the god conclusion a leap of faith is necessary. Here is our argument I will make this as simple as possible for you.Theist = leap of faith, leap of faith = not a free thinker. This is not an opinion of my conclusion is better than yours, it is a definition of a way of thinking and making decisions; but a god conclusion does remove a person from the classification. Later

[Mr. P]

Mad:Quote:And if you think theism and critical thinking are fundamentally at odds, just go ahead and delete all the posts made to BookTalk by theists. See how much critical thinking this forum loses by the exclusion.I SECOND THIS MOTION!!! See Chris...Mad agrees! Lets get to work getting rid of all the theists!!!Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!Mr. P's Bookshelf.I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - AsanaThe one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[Mr. P]

Quote:but I'd hate to think that such an organization could only be built by sacrificing the promise that BookTalk had as that other sort of organization. Booktalk WAS that organization. Things have changed, so changing them back is not that far off! I know Chris said in the recent past that booktalk was never meant to be an atheist community, but that is not how I saw it when I joined...or how it was functioning either for that matter.Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!Mr. P's Bookshelf.I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - AsanaThe one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[MaesterAuron151]

He will dismiss you as dillusional and I'm leaning towards agreeing.

[Frank 013]

Quote:There is no such thing as living without faith. Everyone has faith in something or someone.Holy crap Asthma actually said something right for a change.But here are the fine points.The things that I have faith in have earned that faith. Through repeated observance (the sun rising) or repeated testing (a friend's loyalty) even when I read an article about a new transitional fossil I check with the archeological community as a whole before I place "faith" in their findings, and even then that faith is always subject to change.On the other hand "faith" in god has no such supporting evidence; it relies on "blind faith" which requires the suppression of logic and observable evidence. One of these things is not like the other.Later