Belief in God

[Mr. P]

I never said I can do 'it'. I say I can do all this:Quote:As I see it, God-talk is more about our attitude towards reality- as a whole and in all of its parts and pieces. How we describe God or discuss the issue exposes our trust in what is uncertain and incomplete in our views of reality.When we make claims to what God is or isnt, we are uttering our fears and aspirations for what is ultimately important and fundamentally non-negotiable.Our talking about God is a talk about allegiences, alliances and where we choose to stand in the fight for survival and the healing required to survive with some degree of joy.Talking about God is talking about Love...where it comes from, how it gets here, what we need to do to hold on to it, and where we think it needs to go.Most importantly, as I see it...talking about God should empower and encourage us to love more fully and with less fear....adding to the dignity of ourselves and the world around us. without a belief in a god. I was refering to your comment. Just replace god with the word "REASON" and it all applies to how I try to live my life.Why is it that so many feel that they cannot live a good, productive and fulfilling life without the belief that there is some superior being to us? I just do not understand how subjugating our importance to a fictional deity makes us better.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

[Mr. P]

Quote:As I see it, if you want to see God, watch how well I love...that's the very best I can do.And all I say is that I can love just as well as those who attibute such love to god. Do you deny that it can be so?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

[Mr. P]

Quote:Watch how well I love... true love comes from my heart (well, brain). From ME. Where is God in that? Can I not love? I think your two posts have summed up what I have been trying to say nicely!Thanks!Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

[Dissident Heart]

Quote:Watch how well I love... true love comes from my heart (well, brain). From ME. Where is God in that? Can I not love? And, what pray tell, is YOU? Your brain, your body systems, ideas, attitudes, habits, tastes, fears, expectations, hopes, fantasies, wishes...as well as the sperm and ovum that brought your here, and the parents which delivered them...and all the thousands of years of parents behind them....with all their accompanying body systems and intellectual mechanisms...and the biospheric ecosystems that fed and fueled them...and the star that heated them...and the galactic nest that birthed this star...and the wondrous cascades of star stuff and dark matter of which this particular galaxy is but one speck of dust....this is YOU too...isn't it?And what do we really know about that?So, to say, "Love comes from ME" is as much a matter of poetic fancy as "God is love"...but neither are as important as actual loving- which, when applied correctly, speaks for itself.As for, "Can I not love?"...chances are its difficult, if not downright impossible in many cases...love is hard work, demands everything, and is not satisfied with pretty talk or clever arguments......actually, in this world, real lovers are hard to find...and those that really love are usually rabblerousing trouble makers, shaking things up, demanding that justice be here and now- not simply talked about or promised......most likely, the true lovers in life have upset more than a few people- especially those for whom hate and injustice are integral to their prominence, prestige and power...and considering the amount of hate it takes to conquer, dominate, and control whole populations and pollute entire planets- the lovers of the world are probably in very risky waters......if they love hard enough, as an example made by the haters, they just might find themselves nailed to a cross...

[the hive queen]

I believe my entire being resides in my body. My thoughts, feelings, and beliefs are in my head.Even the ovum and sperm that created me no longer is me. Everything that came before me is physically seperate from me. Dissident Heart, do you really disagree with that?As far as how well we can love... I don't think anyone can really judge that. No one else can truly see inside someone else's head. What people do with their love is what I think is important. People act out in aweful ways in the name of love. I imagine everyone is in agreement with that. One last note: I love nature more than most people. Are you implying, Dissident Heart, that love only exists between people? What about that artistic side of you...

[Mr. P]

hive queen:I think yours is a truer love than that kind of love that relies on obligation to a superior, narcissistic being. Who would love a being that requires your love in order to be accepted?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

[Dissident Heart]

Quote:a truer love than that kind of love that relies on obligation to a superior, narcissistic being.Im not sure where this plays into anything I've said...beyond a shared understanding between Mr. P and myself regarding an awe-inspiring mystery about life's collossal superiority...I've said nothing about a narcissistic being demanding love.Love is a two way street between persons....each wanting, desiring, hungering for the other...this is what we usually mean by the word "Lovers".I have no problem embracing a narrative that describes God as lover...as hungering, desiring, wanting my love in return.You can choose a narrative that sees this as abusive narcissistic manipulation of the weak by the strong.I don't. I embrace a love of God that is reciprocated in kind....this great collossal mystery of awesome power and wonder (which we both agree is beyond our understanding) loves me, and the world around and within me.You can choose to say whatever you want about it.

[Mr. P]

Quote:Im not sure where this plays into anything I've said...beyond a shared understanding between Mr. P and myself regarding an awe-inspiring mystery about life's collossal superiority...I've said nothing about a narcissistic being demanding love.I was simply replying to Hive Queen. Not commenting on our discussion. I was commenting on the idea amongst many, if not all, the religions that if you do not accept their god, you are damned.Quote:Love is a two way street between persons....each wanting, desiring, hungering for the other...this is what we usually mean by the word "Lovers".But love can also be one way. I can love without being loved and vice-versa.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

[Dissident Heart]

Quote:the idea amongst many, if not all, the religions that if you do not accept their god, you are damned.Would you be willing to agree that if I reject your idea of reason, scientific process, logical analysis...that I will be guaranteed a fairly miserable life of consistent bad choices, ruptured projects, impossible quandries, and a general misery inflicted on myself and others...ultimately would I not be a danger to myself and others...and if I continued on this path of irrational, illogical, anti-scientific behavior wouldnt I eventually destroy my physical and emotional health, not to mention screw up the political, legal, medicinal, educational, ecological systems of wherever I may stumble?Would you agree that by rejecting your way of life, I would be creating a type of hell....willfully choosing to spread hell wherever I went?

[Mr. P]

Nope...I do not agree. There are many ways to make it through life. I do not deny this. It is the mixture of ideologies and rational thought that cause the personal hells some feel. Not being able to cope with others and such.When strict ideology gets in the way of reason and pursuit of knowledge, though, it becomes a bad thing to all. It is the unwillingness to discuss and to grow from that discussion that is the danger.Many who hold your beliefs would not waste a second in the conversation you and I have had...they would just shut me out. And vice-versa. I had this problem on another board I frequent...which is why I am here now.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.