The Mything Link

[youkrst]

Though riddled with logical flaws and misrepresentations the writings of Murdock, Wright, Campbell and others were preferred and defended.

show me one, just one single logical flaw or misrepresentation in the work of Joseph Campbell.

the old one true myth thing is a crock!

it goes something like, yeah all the others are myths too, but our myth is actually TRUE!

Campbell's statement that all religions are true in this sense: They are true as metaphorical of the inner spiritual potentialities of men and women. This is more or less identical to J.R.R. Tolkien's view of mythology, of course.

they are ALL metaphors so they are true in the connotation but false in denotation.

imagine if someone said yes all these sayings are great but mine is true there really is "more than one way to skin a cat!"

but "a stitch in time" doesn't really "save nine".

it's basic ground.

the letter (denotation) kills but the spirit (connotation) gives life

these words are spirit and they are life.

he that has ears to hear let him hear.

[DWill]

What prompted this question in this topic of discussion?

It's a fairly easy question to address. Of course it's entirely perspectival.

If you consider it irrelevant, I won't press you to give a substantive response.

[DWill]

I hope you will watch it and that it will generate some discussion.


The True Myth

I can appreciate the risk involved of offering to others something you find extremely affecting, especially when you can assume the audience to be unreceptive. Reading this transcript, I just don't feel called upon to discuss it; I can't see what needs to be discussed about this sincere record of how he came to believe. It becomes part of his biography. I enjoyed the film based on Lewis' life (Shadowlands) despite not believing as he does.

[stahrwe]

The Atheist Turtle has a term called CRUDE with the E denoting Evasion. That would apply to refusing to discuss the transcript.

With Tolkien crowned by the secular world with writing the best book of the 20th century and possibly the 2nd millenia it is extremely hard to impeach his claims about myths. He IS THE authority on their structure, meaning and truthfulness. Tolkien will be studied and referred to when Campbell is a footnote in PhD dissertations and Murdock, Wright, and their ilk are long forgotten.

[youkrst]

The Atheist Turtle has a term called CRUDE with the E denoting Evasion.

do you mean the way you evaded my request to...

show me one, just one single logical flaw or misrepresentation in the work of Joseph Campbell.

That would apply to refusing to discuss the transcript.

well i'm certainly not refusing to discuss the transcript, i enjoyed it, thanks for the link!

He IS THE authority on their structure, meaning and truthfulness.

and yet he failed to see that Christ is as much a personification as Hermes or Heracles.

Tolkien will be studied and referred to when Campbell is a footnote in PhD dissertations and Murdock, Wright, and their ilk are long forgotten.

i'll put that in my prediction collection right below the entry for Lord Kelvin. We'll soon see!

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
-- Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.

[DWill]

I think he's saying that I'm refusing to talk about it, youkrst, and being (I thought) nice about what he'd posted doesn't matter if nobody will consider his point. What his point is, I don't know. He comes back with the assertion about LOTR being the best book of the millenium (having I'm sure read all the other contenders) as if that is directly relevant to the transcript. In the transcript, Tolkien makes an argument that is supposed to logically prove his statements of faith. His expertise on myth is also supposed to trump any use of myth made by anyone else, and in the process prove the truth of the Christian myth, myth in this one case being something that isn't fiction at all. If this isn't what stahrwe means to say, I don't think he can blame me. He needs to speak more fully on the subject.

It might have been before you had joined, but he, I , and geo discussed a book by Robert Wright, and stahrwe felt wronged. He hasn't let go of the grievance.

[geo]

I haven't really been paying attention to this thread. Sorry, a reenactment of a "key meeting" between Lewis and Tolkien just doesn't sound all that interesting especially when you consider Stahrwe's agenda (and probably the agenda of those who put the reenactment together). Somehow the idea that C.S. Lewis went from an atheist to a Christian is supposed to have significance? Maybe Stahrwe can elaborate on why this seems important to him.

I've recently been reading short stories by Lord Dunsany (1878-1957) an important figure in the development of fantastic literature and one who is often cited as a major influence on Tolkien, H.P. Lovecraft, LeGuin, among others. Much of his work deals with magic and (pre-Christian) pagan gods. According to scholar, S.T. Joshi, Dunsany's work is "unified by a single overriding theme—the need for human reunification with the natural world." I believe Dunsany was critical of Christianity for usurping the old gods and, thus, severing our mythic connections to nature and contributing to our current disconnect with the natural world.

http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Dunsany-Angl ... 0313294038

[stahrwe]

More diversion and evasion? If you haven't been paying attention than why post?

Influences on Tolkien are diversionary to this discussion unless Tolkien or Lewis mentioned them.

The comment that the True Myth premise has been dismissed, or whatever the exact comment was proves to me that poster believes in magic. One can just invoke an incantation and make a significant body of evidence supported by the primary sources own testimony disappear. Bravo.

As for my agenda, BT was discussing The Hobbit before I came back. When I brought up the religious foundation of the book it seemed that there was a reluctance to embrace that aspect. I understand that given BT's atheistic foundation. However, the fact that CS Lewis was also an atheist when he encountered Tolkien, and that his discussions with Tolkien, by Lewis' own admission, led him to become a Christian seemed relevant and interesting given the Hobbit discussion. I purposely excluded this post from The Hobbit thread so as not to derail that book's discussion. My agenda? To stimulate thought and intelligent discussion. And before the 'intelligent' adjective linked to 'discussion' is dismissed due to my perspective; I submit that both Lewis and Tolkien legitimize that adjective given their on point conversation as reported here and their acknowledgement as scholars of a magnitude which eclipses mine and every other BT partcipant.

[geo]

Fair enough. This is your thread. I didn't participate in the Tolkien discussion and I don't have anything to say here. Carry on.

[stahrwe]

Is it a small fjord or gully? Perhaps an old Norse ravine or an olde English yawn; Or, maybe it is the earth; or even George; whatever it is it is a terrible thing to live in fear; to duck and cover; to hide.